chat

As someone who wants to embed Loomio proposals and decision protocols in other systems, adding chat seems like the wrong direction. I'm happy to see @gdpelican 's opinion upthread that Loomio devs want to focus on decision-making.

Relatedly, what happened to the mythical Open Apps Ecosystem ideas of flocks of apps working together?

Too much talk, not enough action. It was a shame to see Sandstorm go the way of the 'community supported project', and they got waaay further than OpenApps ever did. Interop is hard and usually doesn't make anyone any money unless it's designed and executed really well (and even then you have to have a core value prop that's actually worth something too, and have apps on there that people actually want to use together, and they have to work together in the right way... the complexity compounds real quickly)

It's the type of thing that businesses or organizations can discuss at a high level for years (oh God it is soo satisfying for people to imagine a world with better interop), but never grasp quite well enough conceptually to turn it into a real thing.

I hope not to come off as too negative in this post. But I have to admit to rolling my eyes a little whenever interop comes up in a business context, while simultaneously working furiously at making it a reality in my own work for years. We're still not there yet (although at this point the mountains are more like 'Write some really high quality documentation', rather than 'rejigger our whole codebase to account for other apps', and at this point we'll need to be focusing 100% on sustaining ourselves as a business, which means doing the thing that produces the most user value the quickest... which is a very specific subset of interop (like talking to Facebook, Slack, and Google). And, sorry to say, it's not chat. <3

As ever, the caveat applies that an interested and talented developer may come along and make it happen. I would love to see this, and am more than willing to support anyone in such an endeavor.

Totally agree about Sandstorm. I think Open Apps continues in Root Systems. And yes interop is hard, and needs to be focused on immediate benefits, but is happening all over the place. That's a lot of what makes Slack and the other black holes you mentioned such attractors, and why you want to interop with them.

Before that, it happened in big supply chains (e.g. Walmart, Apple, Toyota, etc).

This is an addition to my previous reply. Thought about it more during our morning walk.

From a software business viewpoint (which is a really difficult viewpoint for me to adopt anymore, but I worked in software businesses for lotta years, so I can still force my head to go there), how many interops you got is part of the sales pitch of several of today's star apps: Slack and Trello, for example.

But in the longer software business run, you got platforms and features. Slack and Trello are features trying to be platforms. They will fail as platforms, although they may cash out as features (as Trello has already done).

Decision-making is a feature, so it makes sense to interop with platforms. Even temporary wannabe platforms like Slack...

Doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) for Loomio to try to become a platform.

At risk of drifting off-topic here, but I have to say...

which means doing the thing that produces the most user value the quickest... which is a very specific subset of interop (like talking to Facebook, Slack, and Google).

Doesn't prioritizing interop with The Stacks (and wannabe Stacks like Slack) run counter to your basic values as a social enterprise? Equivalent to running like a trad start-up and aiming for acquisition or IPO? Wasn't the whole idea of the CTA that smooth interop between free code apps would allow you to collectively become a replacement for The Stacks?

As someone who wants to embed Loomio proposals and decision protocols in other systems, adding chat seems like the wrong direction.

Maybe for your specific use case, but some of us use Loomio as the HQ of our collaborative workflow. Being able to move into ephemeral text chat (or even better launch a voice/video conference) from within a Loomio group would help prevent the flooding of asynchronous threads with realtime back-and-forth, which makes it harder for other participants to keep up with the thread.

Maybe the simplest way to address this need would be a feature that allows a user spin up a temporary subgroup? I've described how this could work in a new thread called Brainstorms.

Doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) for Loomio to try to become a platform.

I think we need to distinguish here between Loomio (the codebase), and Loomio.org (the website). I agree with what you say here when it comes to Loomio the codebase. But Loomio.org is a platform (as is any other instance), and whatever features can be added to Loomio.org can be added to any other Loomio platform. At the moment that's being done by tying Loomio.org into The Stacks.

I think it would be better for a constellation of reasons (both technical and ethical) to achieve the same goals by tying Loomio.org into existing free code apps. I've said, there are plenty of server-side chat packages that could be pressed into service for this. The API added to Diaspora to allow an XMPP server to be the back-end for Diaspora's chat feature is another example of this in practice.

Hmmm.

some of us use Loomio as the HQ of our collaborative workflow.

Ok, sorry, I have not encountered that situation before. Every org I've worked with has a lot of systems in use and Loomio is an adjunct, often just for decisions, but sometimes also for discussions. So those orgs would prefer Loomio as a plugin. I can see if Loomio is your HQ, it's all different.

[edit:] I wonder what the spread is between Loomio as your HQ vs Loomio as one app among maybe many?

@bobhaugen Do you mind if I reply to your comments about platforms on this thread, where it might be more on-topic, and avoid hi-jacking this thread about chat?

Ok with me. But I think the comments about Loomio's role in its user base is on-topic for this thread, too. Adding chat might make sense if Loomio is your HQ, but not if Loomio is one of many tools that you use that you would like to work together more. Then it just gets in the way, because you already have a chat tool.