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Appeal to State Council : Proposal that the Pirate Party contributes

H
HgO Public Seen by 43

Français, English below

Ahoy !

Lors du dernier Pirate Lab, j'ai demandé si le Parti Pirate serait d'accord de participer financièrement au recours au Conseil d'État que j'ai déposé en octobre dernier. À l'époque, un article avait été publié sur le site du parti, expliquant en détails ma démarche (et celle de l'équipage du Brabant wallon). Je vous invite à le lire pour avoir tous les détails de l'affaire.

En bref, le recours concerne l'accès aux projets de délibération du conseil communal de Braine-l'Alleud. Un projet de délibération est une sorte de pré-PV, avec le détail de chacun des points inscrits à l'ordre du jour. Lorsque les citoyens ont accès à ces documents, ils ont la possibilité de mieux comprendre ce qui est décidé, de débattre entre-eux, et même d'organiser des assemblées citoyennes (c'est ce qui se passe à Louvain-la-Neuve par exemple).

Nous le disions dans l'article : le problème est qu'un recours au Conseil d'État est une solution lente et coûteuse, et n'est pas à la portée de tout le monde. Pour le moment, ce sont mes proches et moi qui payons les frais de dossier (220€) et les frais d'avocat (2000€ jusqu'à présent). Si j'obtiens gain de cause, la commune devra me rembourser 700€. Néanmoins, si je perds ce sera à moi de payer les 700€.

La proposition est la suivante : Le Parti Pirate contribue financièrement au recours déposé au Conseil d'État, à hauteur de 700€, quelque soit l'issue du recours.

Je ne suis pas pressé, nous avons vraiment le temps pour en discuter. Un recours dure en général plusieurs années. Je propose donc que chaque équipage discute de cette proposition et communique sa décision ici.

On peut fonctionner au consentement : si vous ou votre équipage avez une objection forte (et argumentée !) contre cette proposition, alors elle ne passera pas en l'état et on en rediscutera.

Je serai présent au Pirate Lab du 23 février qui aura lieu à Malines, on pourra donc en discuter là-bas pour ceux qui veulent.


English

Ahoy !

Last Pirate Lab, I asked if the Pirate Party would agree to contribute to the appeal I made in October to the State Council. At that time, we published an article on the website (in French) were we explained why I (and the Crew BW) did this. You can read that article to have more information on this action.

In short, the appeal concerns the right to access the "projets de délibération" (deliberation projects) of the city council of Braine-l'Alleud (Eigenbrakel). A deliberation projet is a kind of pre-report, with all the details for each point on the agenda. When citizens have those documents, they can better understand what is decided, they can debate, or even organize citizen assemblies (that's what is happening in Louvain-la-Neuve for instance).

As we said in the article : the issue is that an appeal to the State Council is slow and cost a lot of money, and thus not everyone can afford this. Currently, my relatives and myself are paying the administrative fees (220€) and the lawyer (2000€ until now). If I win, the city will have to refund me 700€. However, if I lose, then I'll have to refund them 700€.

The proposal is the following : The Pirate Party contributes with 700€ to the appeal to the State Council, regardless of the outcome of this appeal

I'm not in a hurry, we have plenty of time to debate about this. In general, an appeal can last a couple of years. So, I propose that each crew discuss this proposal and tell here what is their decision.

We can work with consent : if you or your crew have a strong objection (with argumentation !), then the proposal is rejected as is, and we will have to debate about this.

I'll be at the Pirate Lab on 23rd february, in Mechelen, so we could talk about the proposal for those who want.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Fri 8 Feb 2019

Je soutiens la proposition, l'initiative s'inscrit pleinement dans les valeurs du PPBe et vu le montant, un soutien de notre part semble approprié. Je vais amener le sujet à l'ODJ de la prochaine réunion à Liège (début mars) pour diffuser l'information (je ne serai sans doute pas présent le 23).

I support the proposal, the initiative is fully in line with the values of the PPBe and given the amount, support from us seems appropriate. I will bring the subject to our next meeting in Liège (early March) to share the information (I will probably not be present on the 23rd).

DU

[deactivated account] Fri 8 Feb 2019

No problems! I agree with it. It can change the game.

LM

Lander Meeusen Fri 8 Feb 2019

Is the goal to have a Citizen Council to discuss the agenda of the upcoming city councils, and formulate questions, comments, suggestions for the representatives? It sounds like the Burgerraad in Antwerp, which I think is a great initiative. All for it. Personally, I think the Pirate Party should strive to make this practice obligatory through regional legislation (i.c. adapting the decreet Lokaal Bestuur, here in Flanders) and have this as a concrete topic in our election programmes in May.

H

HgO Fri 8 Feb 2019

Hm that's a great idea, but that's absolutly not what I'm talking here.

I'm proposing that the Pirate Party contribute (with money) to the action described here :
* in French : https://fr.pirateparty.be/braine-lalleud-les-pirates-deposent-un-recours-au-conseil-detat/
* in Dutch : https://pad.pirateparty.be/p/recours-au-conseil (we should actually publish this translation…)

LM

Lander Meeusen Tue 12 Feb 2019

I understand and I agree. What I meant is that in Antwerp the Burgerraad receives the agenda and resolutions (to a certain detail, often with a lot of questions) a week before the City Council which they then discuss with citizens. This seems to me the correct practice which is neglected in this case.

FD

Florence D. Tue 12 Feb 2019

Pourquoi tu finances le reste toi même et qu est ce que ça apporte que la collectivité assume uniquement cette partie là de tes frais ? Un soutien moral ? Une adhésion officielle à la démarche ? Perso je ne me suis pas intéressée au budget ni à comment le dépenser utilement et à priori ça semble cohérent que tu sois soutenu financièrement dans une démarche qui ferait peut être bien d être clairement désignée comme priorité ou non de l organisation vu les topics actuels sur la nécessité ou pas d intervenir sur des questions locales de transparence. C quoi l initiative à Anvers concrètement ?

LM

Lander Meeusen Tue 12 Feb 2019

In Antwerp the Burgerraad receives the agenda and resolutions (to a certain detail, often with a lot of questions) a week before the City Council which they then discuss with citizens. This seems to me the correct practice which is neglected in this case.

FD

Florence D. Tue 12 Feb 2019

Ja, inderdaad

Envoyé à partir de mon Windows Phone

De :
Lander Meeusen (Loomio) ( notifications@loomio.org )

Envoyé :
‎12-‎02-‎19 15:46

À :
florencedelbauve@hotmail.com

Objet :
Lander Meeusen vous a répondu dans : Appeal to State Council : Proposal that the Pirate Party contributes

H

HgO Sat 16 Feb 2019

L'idée est effectivement d'avoir un soutien moral et symbolique. Mais il y a aussi une raison pragmatique. Comme expliqué dans un autre fil de discussion, le Parti Pirate possède à l'heure actuelle ~4500€. Une proposition est en cours pour prévoir 3000€ de budget pour les élections. Si je demandais à être entièrement soutenu par le Parti Pirate (2200€ pour le moment), cela voudrait dire que nous devrions considérablement réduire le budget pour les élections. Je n'ai clairement pas envie de m'accaparer les ressources des pirates, surtout quand il y a des élections au même moment.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Thu 7 Mar 2019

We discussed about it yesterday at our meeting in Liège and as mentioned in the report, there is no objection to this proposal coming from us :)

I

Ilja Thu 7 Mar 2019

No objections from me either btw. On the contrary, I think this is something we should do.

MB

Marc Buckens Wed 29 May 2019

We should push the transparency through all the municipalities. Please find attached some proposals (based on what is done in some municipalities) that we have proposed (and has been refused to Genappe) You can ask a motion (if you have a representative or "interpellation" as citizen). Do you know the site www.transparencia.be where you can ask anything and the municiaplity has one month to reply. I use it (ie. to get the financial report of Belfius which very interesting)

MB

Marc Buckens Wed 29 May 2019

A proposal of rating of municipalities transparency and participation actions. We should find one pirate to push the question to each municipality and make a map of the best (and worst ones) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sp1AG4FvRb4Yv9Ok3pPs5GMteemoUIgn

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 29 May 2019

Do you know the site www.transparencia.be where you can ask anything and the municiaplity has one month to reply

Yes, about 10-20% of the requests made on transparencia.be are made by pirates actually.

We should push the transparency through all the municipalities.

Yes we "should", we also should push legislative changes at the regional level, etc (and there have been changes there in the last weeks, giving more power to CADA)

But this thread is not about that, it's about a concrete proposal detailed in the first message. For transparency in general, I suggest this thread

H

HgO Wed 29 May 2019

@marcbuckens You surely knows @patrickinstalle, who is one of the co-funder of Transparencia. He is helping some local representatives (in the opposition, mostly in the Brabant wallon) to ask for more transparency from their city.

We should push the transparency through all the municipalities.

That's already what we are trying to do since several years, but we are not many. For instance, I'm pushing for transparency in my city (Braine-l'Alleud) as you can see in the thread we are right now, and also with the requests I made through Transparencia.
@patrickinstalle made a website to publish document that should be public : https://conseil-citoyen.be
You can also have a look on the wiki (although I'm not sure the information is fully up-to-date) : https://wiki.pirateparty.be/Transparency

A proposal of rating of municipalities transparency and participation actions

That was the aim of this project : https://wiki.pirateparty.be/Transparency/WikiCitoyen (but as I said : not enough people, not enough time) And I remember that Transperancia helped journalists to make a "transparency barometer", first in Brussels then in Wallonia.


Anyways, regarding the proposal to contribute to this action : we will talk about this at the 1st June's Pirate Lab, and hopefully make a decision there. So far, there wasn't any objection, so if someone has something against this proposal, they should talk now ^

I

Ilja Sat 1 Jun 2019

ahum I think we should have articles about it. This is good for

  1. Transparancy (both about ppbe as well as what's happening in Belgium)
  2. Marketing
H

HgO Sun 9 Jun 2019

Puisqu'il n'y a eu aucune objection à cette proposition (au contraire !), nous avons décidé lors du Pirate Lab de mai que le Parti Pirate contribue financièrement, à hauteur de 700€, pour ce recours.

Petit chronologie :
* En janvier j'ai reçu l'argumentaire de la commune qui expliquait sa vision des choses et ses raisons du refus. Il y avait beaucoup d'attaques ad-hominem, ce qui ne m'étonne pas venant de mon bourgmestre…
* En mars, mon avocat a rédigé une contre-argumentation (une réplique aux arguments de la commune)
* Toujours en mars, mon avocat m'a envoyé sa première facture (4035€)
* Je n'ai plus de nouvelles du dossier depuis, mais si j'en crois cette page (requête en annulation), la prochaine étape sera le rapport de l'auditorat.

Une des conditions que l'on a posée lors du Lab était de rédiger un article quel que soit le verdict. Si jamais il y a une audience (ce n'est pas encore sûr à ce stade de la procédure) on pourra également faire de la pub et rédiger un article.

Il faut savoir que depuis que j'ai fait mon recours, la législation a changé : désormais, la CADA (Commission d'Accès aux Documents Administratifs) a un pouvoir décisionnel. Cela signifie qu'il ne sera plus nécessaire d'aller au Conseil d'État. Dans mon cas, la CADA m'avait donné raison, donc avec cette nouvelle loi, la commune aurait été obligée de me transmettre les documents. Je propose de faire un article à ce sujet dans les prochaines semaines, lorsque la nouvelle loi sera entré en vigueur.


As nobody made an objection to this proposal, we decided at the Pirate Lab of May to contribute with 700€ for the appeal to the State Council.

A short history :
* In January, I received the city's argument explaining its view and its reasons for the refusal. There were many ad-hominem attacks, which does not surprise me coming from my mayor…
* In March, my lawyer wrote a counter-argument (a reply to the city's argument)
* Still in March, my lawyer sent me his first invoice (4035€)
* I don't have any news since then, but according to this page (action for annulment), the next step would be the auditor's report.

A condition that we set at the Lab was to write an article regardless of the outcome of this action. If there is a hearing (it's not yet sure at this stage of the procedure), we could also write some article.

Note that since I made this appeal, the law changed : the CADA (Commission for Access to Administrative Documents) has now a decision power. This means that it won't be necessary to go to the State Council anymore. In my case, the CADA ruled in my favour, so with this new law the city would have been forced to send me the documents. I propose to write an article in the next weeks, when the new law takes effects.

LM

Lander Meeusen Thu 13 Jun 2019

Sounds like a win. There will be no more legal expenses then? The 700€ will be for previous lawyer expenses?

H

HgO Wed 26 Jun 2019

Yes indeed! ;)

H

HgO Tue 27 Apr

Excellente nouvelle ! J'ai reçu le verdict du Conseil d'État, et il nous donne raison sur toute la ligne !

Le Conseil d'État considère que les projets de délibérations ne sont pas confidentiels (argument évoqué par la commune pour ne pas les trasnsmettre) et qu'elle n'avait donc aucune raison de ne pas me les communiquer ! La commune avait également dit que mes demandes étaient abusives parce que je demandais les projets de délibérations avant chaque conseil communal… Le Conseil d'État considère que ce n'était pas un abus : « Chacun a intérêt à agir en vue du respect de ce droit fondamental et à contester les refus de consultation qui lui sont opposés. L’exigence d’intérêt au recours contre le refus de communication d’un document administratif, ne consiste pas à imposer au requérant de justifier l’usage qu’il compte ultérieurement faire du document sollicité. »

On va rédiger un communiqué de presse assez bref, en attendant d'écrire un article plus complet.

Je propose de faire une réunion (en ligne mais aussi en présentiel pour celleux qui veulent) afin de debriefer et de commencer la rédaction de l'article. Voici le sondage pour la réunion : https://poll.parley.be/studs.php?poll=yC4gPACgWjexp26w


Great news! I have received the verdict from the State Council, and we won!

The State Council considers that the draft deliberations ("projets de délibérations", aka the draft minutes) are not confidential (an argument put forward by the city for not transmitting them) and therefore the documents had to be communicated to me!

The State Council considers that this was not an abuse neither: "Everyone has an interest in acting to ensure that this fundamental right is respected and to challenge consultation refusals. The requirement of an interest in appealing against the refusal to communicate an administrative document does not consist in requiring the applicant to justify the use he or she intends to make of the requested document at a later date. "

We will write a short press communicate, while waiting to write a more complete article.

I propose to have a meeting (online, but IPL for those who want to) to debrief and start writing the article. Here is the survey for the meeting: https://poll.parley.be/studs.php?poll=yC4gPACgWjexp26w

LM

Lander Meeusen Wed 28 Apr

Very impressive, @HgO !!! Congrats!!

Sounds like something Transparencia will be very interested in as well. (Hopefully they will share the communiqué as well.)

LM

Lander Meeusen Wed 28 Apr

I filled in the poll for a meeting. There's a few things, I must say though.
-The press communiqué has apparently already been written, approved (by 3 pirates, without discussion), and published on the website and FB. Only in French. I didn't know this was allowed. (I'm not saying I disagree with the content. It's about horizontal democracy, delegative powers for redactors, quality check of publications, etc ...)

-Here's a Dutch translation if you're interested. It has two alterations as opposed to the French version, merely as suggestions. https://pad.parley.be/p/communique_Nederlands

-Yesterday, I was mysteriously kicked out as an adminstrator of the facebook-page "Pirate Party Belgium". No communication why or by who. Is there a connection to the publication of this article there today?

Anyway, good work, HgO, and all others who worked on this. It's really great!

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Thu 29 Apr

You're right to make that comment about the communiqué. Tuesday afternoon we discussed in the chatroom about releasing a communiqué quickly, because other parties in Braine wanted to talk about it but were waiting for us to do it before. So I proposed to work on that the same day for a quick release otherwise we wouldn't have control of the content in the press. The work started that same evening, and it went actually so fast that it was done before I even thought about informing on Loomio. So we are then stuck in the evening with a communiqué that needs a quick release, and I sent it to the press.
I agree it's not the ideal way, but I feel like the only thing that would have changed if I had shared it is that we would have published it later, maybe a whole day later, without relevant changes to the text :/ As you can read, it's actually very descriptive and factual text, and it's not some form of promise or engagment of the PPBe.
I'll pay more attention to that next time, to avoid misunderstandings and bad habits. The opportunity and the emergency kinda dictated the choices here :/

The press has published about it in la DH yesterday evening https://www.dhnet.be/regions/brabant/waterloo-braine/le-conseil-d-etat-donne-raison-au-parti-pirate-608992877b50a61692843a20 and in La Libre this morning https://www.lalibre.be/regions/brabant/le-parti-pirate-demandait-l-acces-a-des-documents-communaux-de-braine-l-alleud-le-conseil-d-etat-lui-donne-raison-608a54357b50a61692899d27 (both articles are the same).

Hopefully someone can proofread your translation (thanks for it!). From what I read, it seemed ok :)

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Thu 29 Apr

"Yesterday, I was mysteriously kicked out as an adminstrator of the facebook-page "Pirate Party Belgium". No communication why or by who. Is there a connection to the publication of this article there today?"

I would also really love to understand why that has happened. It's a strange coincidence, but hopefully it's only a mistake by another admin.

LM

Lander Meeusen Thu 29 Apr

I understand. In fact, after giving it some thought. There's not really much harm, like you say. Except maybe there's no Dutch or English translation. It's very unlikely this will be picked up by Flemish press, but maybe in BRussels? There's bruzz.be.

Anyway, a clear, transparant and internally widespread protocal might be handy. Like you say not everybody needs to approve of distributing simple facts, but 3 pirates are good for quality / language control. Also, who publishes what where. For some people it's harder to get permission to post an article on the website than for others. Food for a dialogue later.

See you soon, hopefully.

H

HgO Sat 1 May

If I recall correctly, the previous communiqués were (most of the time?) sent first in one language, then later in the other one. It's not really a problem because as @Renaud Van Eeckhout said, we are communicating about facts, with a statement to explain the Pirates ideas. Usually, we are reacting to some news, so it's important to quickly communicate about it. For instance, if we didn't communicate fast about our victory, probably other parties would have done it. But we didn't have this pressure from Flanders, since the facts happened in Braine-l'Alleud (although the lack of transparency is present in many Belgian cities). Ideally, we would have more people able to translate and check the articles, but that's not the case right now... Anyways, I'd be happy if we release the communiqué written in Dutch :) Just let us know when it's ready.

H

HgO Sat 1 May

Maybe @Patrick Installé could grant you admin rights again? I'm not on Facebook, so I don't really know who is admin or not.

LM

Lander Meeusen Sun 2 May

It's ready as far as I'm concerned. As I said, for the flemish press, there's indeed no rush. But in Brussels there's some English press as well.

Anyway, I see now 5 people are available on thursday and sunday is not a popular option anymore. If thursdayevening is the date, I'll have to see last minute if I'm available.

FD

Florence D. Fri 30 Apr

Félicitations pour cet aboutissement positif de la procédure entreprise. Est ce que finalement ça a été financé majoritairement par toi-même sur fonds propres ? c était déjà environ 4 ou 5000 euros il y a quelques mois, c est un gros investissement.

H

HgO Sat 1 May

J'avais encore payé 2200€ en juillet 2020 il me semble, et j'attends la dernière facture. Braine-l'Alleud doit me rembourser 920€ d'indemnités. Oui j'ai payé la majorité, mes parents ont payé une bonne partie aussi, et le Parti Pirate a contribué comme convenu à hauteur de 700€. Personnellement je n'ai pas de soucis avec le fait de supporter moi-même les frais, mais c'est clair que l'accès à la justice sera un point à soulever dans l'article…

LM

Lander Meeusen Sat 1 May

I see that 3 people filled in the poll. There's 3 results: today (May 1) at 14h; Sunday (May 2) at 19.30h; Thursday (May 6) at 19.30h. I prefer today or tomorrow, but if we want to do it today, we're going to have to decide rather soon to meet.

H

HgO Sat 1 May

Hello, I'm waiting for a bit more people to answer the poll, so I think tomorrow would be too short in time. I propose to close the poll Sunday in the evening :)

H

HgO Mon 3 May

I'm closing the date poll :) The meeting will be on Thursday 6th May at 19:30, both on Mumble and IPL for those who want :

See you soon!


Le sondage est clôturé :) La réunion aura lieu ce jeudi 6 mai à 19h30, à la fois sur Mumble et en présentiel pour celleux qui le souhaitent :

À bientôt !

LM

Lander Meeusen Sun 9 May

As I feared, I couldn't make it. How was the meeting? Any decisions? How about the Dutch translation?

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Mon 10 May

Hello, sorry for the delay, long time we didn't have a work meeting!

The report is here: https://wiki.pirateparty.be/Transparency/Meeting/06_05_2021

For the translation, let's publish it. We just had right now a dutchspeaking proofreading. I'll publish it tonight on the website, like the french version. Will you send the communiqué by email to the dutch-speaking press?

LM

Lander Meeusen Mon 10 May

It's sent.