Loomio

vzw / asbl in the making

TVO
Tim Van Oosterwyck Public Seen by 481

Dear all

During last lab of 28/01 a workgroup was created to pick up on the creation of the vzw where the last team left off (look on the lab's minutes).

As you know, the creation of the vzw, as is, was approved during last october's General Assembly.

Within the group, volunteers have been identified to start the first board, also a potential address as principal seat has been mentioned. Although any of this is still up for change. NOTE: the statutes themmselves are not up for change.

During a designated meeting in Expression (Mechelen) we would like to invite anyone interested to:
- provide feedback
- apply as board or loose member
- suggest alternative head office addresses

The final draft will be present (and signed if membership ambitions remain unchanged by the meeting).

Further follow-up actions have been laid out. Such as arranging a knowledge transfer from Patrick and/or Toon to streamline the administrative part.

MEETING details: https://wiki.pirateparty.be/ASBL/VZW_creation/Meeting/21_02_2017
- monday 27/02/2017
- 19:30h
- De Olifant (across the street of Expression)
Hendrick consciencestraat 39
2800 Mechelen

Any constructive feedback is of course welcome!


Project page on the wiki and next meeting(s) : Asbl/Vzw Creation

PI

Patrick Installé Wed 1 Feb 2017

...
NOTE: the statutes themmselves are not up for change.
...

Would you please give an url to the document.

PI

Patrick Installé Wed 1 Feb 2017

...
Further follow-up actions have been laid out. Such as arranging a knowledge transfer from Patrick and/or Toon to streamline the administrative part.
...

The proposition of "vzw/asbl" presented to the last GA was totally un-acceptable.
I will NOT make any transfert to such organisationn. I hask Toon to do the same. Even if it was decided by lazycracy.

SD

Sandrine Debatty Thu 2 Feb 2017

Peut-on avoir un résumé en français a.u.b?

J

Josse Thu 2 Feb 2017

You are going against a democratic decision with enough chances for arguments to be given. This is totally against more democracy. And I don't understand what is against an organisation whose only main goal (all others are speculative even if they are in the statutes) is to provide more security for that one account. This is not the same as the core team. Your arguments make no sense. Some people create plenty of different organizations to attain their goal and make a clear separation between tasks.

PI

Patrick Installé Sun 5 Feb 2017

FUD

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sun 5 Feb 2017

For those who does not understand F.U.D. ... I suppose that you mean Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt? FUD en français and FUD in nederlands.

J

Josse Sun 5 Feb 2017

Who is FUDding here?

PI

Patrick Installé Sun 5 Feb 2017

I don't feed the troll anymore.

TVO

Tim Van Oosterwyck Tue 7 Feb 2017

Thank you for your input, Patrick. We have noted that you do not wish to be contacted for any knowledge transfer activities.

TF

Thierry Fenasse Tue 7 Feb 2017

Is it me ... or Toon already have access to the Triodos bank account?
So what «knowledge transfer activities» are we talking about?

TF

Thierry Fenasse Tue 7 Feb 2017

Instead of asking money to become a member on the website, if we where asking for people participation, maybe we would not waste so many time on those kind of thin[gk]s :

Pirate BE - non public group used 2 years ago.
* what kind of vzw/asbl do we want?
* What will be the statutes and the goals of this asbl/vzw ?

Pirates BE - Permanent Assembly - this current public group.
* VZW - ASBL
* Founding members for the asbl ......
* Restart: A distribution key for incoming member contributions

And many time also on Facebook, Google Docs, Pads, etc.

So ... when there is some money involved, if crews and squads where handling their own funding needs, incomes and expenses transparently, on their own. Using some kind of call for funds based on a detailed budget request to organize a symposium, print some t-shirts or do anything.

as an example : IT-Squad - Expenses which asks the current Finance Squad to pay the bills from the Triodos bank account. It could be fulfilled be some IT-Squad members and other contributors if we change the way we handle money.

Would we still need some asbl/vzw?

And if some pirates keep working on it please ... do-it as an asbl/vzw creation squad.

PD

Pascal Dk Tue 7 Feb 2017

"War. War never changes."

But statutes do.


(I'm reading this topic since it has been created, I try to resist but it triggers me like hell... so here we go)

1/ The goal of the VZW is not clear.

At first, the project was aiming at having an official "something" in order to get public funds in case of a victory during the next elections.
Now, this VZW wants to deal with every cents owned by the PPBE, the memberships (money and database), and some other stuffs (ie : admin support)

In a word, the final result has nothing to do with the original goal.

For me it's enough to stop and block, but there is more.

2/ There is still unreplied questions.

Valerie asked questions in the VZW's Google Doc.. no replies.
She asked again during the last GA... still no replies.
Sandrine asks for a french version IN THIS TOPIC... no replies either.

3/ A lot of arguments have never been considered.

One of them being the fact that Crews are independent for their own money.
Another one is the FACT that a VZW doesn't provide money protection.

Since it has been proved 2 years ago, I still wonder why we should belive the opposite now.

4/ Patrick is someone we can trust.

Not agreeing with him is not enough to deny what he has to say.
That kind of stuff shows ego, not reason (wisdom).

5/ Democracy...

Who said a vote during a GA is obviously "democratic" ?
Many Pirates (oldest, maybe) perfectly knows how a vote maybe corrupted, irrelevant, or just rotten.
(One of) The first things to get before talking about democracy is information.

Cf 2/, there is still informations we don't have despite asking for them.

6/ Why a VZW (and not something else)

I asked about it, the answer kills me : "it easier and that's all we know".
It means Pirates are lazy, doesn't want to learn new stuffs, and they will do the same than every other political party in Belgium.

Honestly, this freaks me out.

7/ VZW for all ?

Finally, if you want to build a VZW, why don't you start by creating your own, for your crew, instead of trying to make one for everyone ?

--
So yes, I don't like this project from the beginning, and in my point of view it's getting worst.

It tries to answer issues, but it creates new ones.
It feels like we should accept this VZW just because some work has been done.

BUT... it raised some questions about identity, workflow, money, membership, privacy, power sharing, elections, banks, ... and we still don't have the answers.

Without them you can start any VZW, I bet my two hands it won't work.

#my20cents

VD

Valerie D. Tue 7 Feb 2017

Reminder: not that long after the GA we tried to start "extracting" the arguments against the vzw to be able to repair the concept but the pad was born-dead. Maybe it can be reborn from its ashes? or a little brother of it? or something similar to bring documentation around this build up? https://mypads.framapad.org/p/asbl-vzw-2016-pro-against-r77a975h

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Tue 7 Feb 2017

Er zijn meerdere redenen waarom een overkoepelende vzw (of andere vorm) wel zinvol is.

De aansprakelijkheid:

In een feitelijke vereniging kan elkeen aansprakelijk worden gesteld. Dat kan..... heel verstrekkende gevolgen hebben. Het is niet omdat er nog geen voorval is geweest, dat dit niet kan komen.

De regeling rondom lidgelden:

Het ligt toch voor de hand, dat op die manier mensen lid worden van de gehele groep en dat op basis van een goed uitgewerkte verdeelsleutel en/of goed te keuren budgettering op een praktische manier kan worden gewerkt.

De mogelijkheid tot het in gebruik nemen van een BTW rekening:

waardoor BTW kan worden afgetrokken. veelal 21%

Dan zijn er nog de voordelen die vzw kunnen bekomen:

Erkenning, subsidies en voordelen allerlei aard, zoals oa provinciale uitleen diensten enz.

De wettelijke structuur:

In een vzw of andere rechtspersoonlijkheid is dat statutair en door de wetgever allemaal al uitgewerkt en veel makkelijker om dan praktisch te werk te gaan. De huidige statuten van de feitelijke vereniging zouden dat normaal gezien ook moeten bieden, maar de realiteit toont aan dat dit niet volledig zo is.

De houding van Patrick Installé in deze stelt wel degelijk vragen. Als ik goed begrepen heb, heeft hij op de laatste vergadering zijn ontslag aangeboden. En is hij dus ontslagnemend? Dan is het wel ongepast om te weigeren een overdracht van de rekening te doen. Gezien hij stelt "I will NOT make any transfert to such organisationn. I hask Toon to do the same. Even if it was decided by lazycracy."

Dit is duidelijk buiten elke bevoegdheid en stelt daardoor zijn goede trouw wel degelijk in vraag. Tenslotte is de algemene vergadering die de beslissingen neemt en niet een aangestelde beheerder, die om al dan niet gegronde redenen het oneens is met de keuze van de Algemene vergadering.(sic)

Nu Pascal DK stelt wel degelijk goede vragen omtrent deze materie. Het is duidelijk dat we beter verder met rede de zaken benaderen en zo tot een consensus kunnen groeien. Het kan niet de bedoeling zijn dat verandering of uitbreiding van structuur zou leiden tot splitsingen. Waar zijn we anders mee bezig?

De manier waarop het voorstel voor de vzw werd geformuleerd is wel degelijk voor kritiek vatbaar.

Het lijkt me veel beter dat we eerder zo goed of helemaal afstappen van de feitelijke vereniging (behoudens voor enkele bijzondere zaken, zoals privacy bescherming voor sommige piraten) en volledig werken binnen de nieuwe structuur.

Op die manier stellen er zich 'geen' mogelijke belangen conflicten. Al de piraten worden lid van de overkoepelende VZW. Zij vormen dan ook de algemene vergadering en beslissen dan ook over alle materie.

Dan nog kunnen er op lokaal vlak vzw worden gemaakt, die deel uitmaken van de overkoepelende vzw.

Het wordt nu toch stilaan tijd om de PiratenPartij uit de start blokken te krijgen. Er gaat veel kostbare tijd verloren door gebrek aan daadkracht. Voor crews die eerder van burgerlijsten dromen is dat voor de gemeenteverkiezing mogelijks allemaal niet zo belangrijk. Maar voor we het weten komen ook de andere verkiezingen eraan. Kunnen we dan niet beter SAMEN werken? Het gedachten goed van de Piraten heeft zeker ingang bij veel mensen, laten we schepen bouwen en de zeilen hijsen.... ;-)

En bij man overboord..... verplicht maneuver ... reddingsoperatie ... Patrick Installé ... Jan Cabouter ... al zijn het goede zwemmers, we moeten ze nu toch niet laten afdrijven of verdrinken :-)

to be translated....?

JC

Jo Clarysse Wed 8 Feb 2017

Do we, the Belgian Pirate Party, need a VZW/ASBL? Clearly, we do.

Would the Belgian Pirates like another system in place? Obviously and most probably. But fear of a possible lack of transparency and concentrated power to only a chosen few is holding some of those Belgian pirates back. Which is quite natural, being that this would go against the main principles of the Pirate Party. (Democracy 2.0, Transparency)

In the meantime, the Belgian 'division' of the Pirate Party has agreed in a as-much-democratic-as-possible-for-the-time-being way chosen to start one. This to facilitate a lot of administrative annoyances. In my humble opinion, you're all welcome to come up with something better and possible adjustments, but in the future. Not beforehand, in the future. Those possible improvements can be implemented or copied when proven to be better, in an even further future (to be clear: It's already very, very, late for version 1.0).

Do we need to rewrite the very core of the OS (operating system)? Yes. But as things are, we need to choose an OS(operating system) first to do anything with, at all. Probably OS was a poorly chosen metaphor. Let's call it what it is, a handbag. And for the sake of feeding every gender-related discussion: Yes. We do need a new handbag. All the time. Everyday, if possible.

The goal of the party is to have a (little) say in the global political system and thus bring transparency to the public. Not so much to keep us Belgian Pirates quiet by an everlasting discussion about it's make-up (as in lipstick,deodorant,..). Probably most of you who're reading this, feel like this has to be discussed at another GA (General Assembly). I do not. Mainly because organizing a General Assembly without one (a VZW/ASBL) is a hassle and costly for no good reason.

I don't know of any English expression which sums all of this up as well, so the Flemish one that pops in my head is one about ants copulating. Maybe not so much an expression as it is a verb. Anyhow, it implies it doesn't really matter all that much and it just keeps us from doing what we are supposed to be doing. Yes, it should be perfected. But that will only happen when we finally have something to perfect.

A VZW/ASBL will be created this month. More than three Belgian Pirates are eager and willing to do so. You are free to steer away from it, as a person or if you can convince others in your local crew to do so as a team, by not joining that VZW/ASBL. You are in this case however, not entitled (by law) to ask for any of it's benefits, either. And you are still free to use that alternative system you will create/debate/scrap/debate/create/disagree upon/debate...

H

HgO Wed 8 Feb 2017

Pascal said everything.

Why can't you create an ASBL/VZW for Flanders first ? You could try it for one year and see if it was a good idea, or au contraire if this didn't solve your problems.

My decision is simple: in case you create this national ASBL/VZW as it is (with the statutes I saw during last GA), I will stop paying my membership fee :) I would also encourage people who are against this to do the same, as it seems we cannot do more to express our disagreement...

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Wed 8 Feb 2017

Creating a ASBL for Flanders first does not look as a good idea.

Finding a consensus by changing the ASBL concept looks like a better way to go.

SD

Sandrine Debatty Wed 8 Feb 2017

Les pirates sont censés être unis... Si on fait une asbl par région, où va-t-on? La prochaine étape, c'est des AG par région? Le test peut très bien être réalisé au niveau national. Surtout qu'il y a aussi des francophones favorables à l'asbl. De plus, cette décision a été votée à l'AG. Si on ne met pas en pratique l'asbl au niveau national, qu'on ne respecte pas le vote des membres, à quoi bon voter? A quoi bon être un parti? Quelle image donne-t-on vers l'extérieur? On est censé être différent des autres partis et au final, on se comporte pareil, chacun tire la couverture à soi en faisant fi des décisions communes. Super.

H

HgO Wed 8 Feb 2017

Si on fait une asbl par région, où va-t-on?

On règle un conflit au niveau national, tout simplement.

La prochaine étape, c'est des AG par région?

Il n'est pas question de ça, tu dramatises...

Le test peut très bien être réalisé au niveau national.

Cela me conviendrait aussi (tester une ASBL pour une durée d'un an). Nous avions déjà fait cette proposition, mais elle n'a visiblement pas été retenue. Et je crains aussi qu'on « oublie » d'arrêter le test au bout d'un an.

à quoi bon voter?

C'est bien la question que je me pose. Voter pour voter ne m'intéresse pas. C'est bien de respecter les votes, mais il faut aussi savoir réfléchir au sens du vote. Si le vote génère plus de conflits qu'autre chose, il est peut-être intéressant de se demander s'il est légitime, utile, nécessaire, etc. Et pour rappel, les statuts ont été votés en AG, je ne sais pas si le résultat est très convaincant...

on se comporte pareil

Dans d'autres partis, la question ne se poserait même pas. Un petit comité déciderait ce qui est bon pour toi, et tu n'aurais rien à dire.

chacun tire la couverture à soi en faisant fi des décisions communes.

À nouveau, ce n'est pas une question d'ego...

EDIT: Et sur la question du vote, je t'invite à lire le commentaire de Pascal. Je peux le traduire si vraiment c'est nécessaire...
Pour le reste, tout a été dit, je ne perds plus mon temps avec ce sujet. Il y a des choses bien plus intéressantes et urgentes à faire dans ce parti...

SD

Sandrine Debatty Wed 8 Feb 2017

Je vais te rappeler une valeur des pirates: "les pirates font confiance". Visiblement, ils ont surtout confiance en eux-mêmes, aux autres par contre... Les pirates veulent aussi rassembler. Et toi tu parles de séparatisme... Ce qu'il y a de plus urgent dans ce parti, c'est d'avoir un minimum d'unité, de cohérence, pour qu'un jour le projet aboutisse. Il faut avancer avec les gens qui ont envie d'avancer ensemble, sinon l'énergie qu'on donne ne sert à rien. On est censé travailler ensemble et pas les uns contre les autres. Ce n'est pas la première fois que je le dis et je crois malheureusement que c'est loin d'être la dernière.

J

Josse Wed 8 Feb 2017

@pascaldk, instead of being misinformed on purpose, be aware that a lot is still open and to be defined, while other things have had a clear discussion. You are misinforming, creating anger, ... for no reason at all. Very undemocratic!

1 -> Is to handle the administration behind the ppbe account, clearly explained by Joris at the GA. Also,it can help in redistributing contacts who are interested in doing things.

2 -> replies have been given in the google doc to all questions about the statutes

3 -> crews are independent and we have never said otherwise

4 -> we trust Patrick too, but don't understand why there should be a problem with a democratic decision. Patrick could stay on the account together with the non-profit e.g.

5 -> if chances have been given to give arguments, a lot of pirates were there --> I don't see how this was not democratic.

6 -> No, it means it is a structure that has been applied somewhere else successfully, so we can focus on where our structure matters most and that is not in an asbl for administration, but maybe in the cobudget tool Damien suggested.

7 -> It is to support everyone who can use it. And anyone in Belgium could use it. Better to be united. Also, a national strategy makes sense as a base for the local. (e.g. with the basic text)

PS

Pat Seynaeve Wed 8 Feb 2017

It seems that the time is not right to start a national vzw/asbl.
Since it is better to reach a consensus that everybody is ok with, especially to keep the unity under the Belgian pirates, and because it is not so urgent, I think we should delay the decision.
In the mean time pro's and contra's have to meet each other in a workgroup to discuss and search for a solution.

J

Josse Thu 9 Feb 2017

That is the weird thing @pattico that on the one hand, it is not urgent, but it was also not meant to take anything over, just support, not the most important thing we should discuss. I am afraid we are going to have a lot of other discussions which we should not have and there is a safety mechanism built-in: if the ag does not want it to continue the way it does, there is no problem. (a lot simpler than overdoing the same boring discussions (unless there is an absolutely interesting solution, but I have not seen nothing yet))

PD

Pascal Dk Thu 9 Feb 2017

The weird thing is : not talking about facts (the statutes).

Some people are still waiting for a link to read them by the way...
(unfortunately related pads are not accessible for the moment - 504 error)

EDIT : I added links to the Statutes (Google Doc) in the description

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 11 Feb 2017

Boring discussions?

I would like to know who decided to not allow payment of memberships on the last GA?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 11 Feb 2017

De kern ....

Het lijkt me veel beter dat we eerder zo goed of helemaal afstappen van de feitelijke vereniging (behoudens voor enkele bijzondere zaken, zoals privacy bescherming voor sommige piraten) en volledig werken binnen de nieuwe structuur.

Let's move all together to a ASBL/VZW form .... and leave the old structure for some exceptions ...

DR

Damiens ROBERT Sun 12 Feb 2017

I'm jumping into the discussion.

You shoud first know that I'm not against the creation of a ASBL/VZX on principle. I actually think that it could be a good thing to have a moral entity that could be used to pay the the bills instead of relying on a bank account owned by a private person who I ignore the identity ...

That said, there are still things that bothers me with the current evolution of the situation.

1) I read somewhere that the statutes of this ASBL/VZW could not be changed. It is something that I think is unacceptable. If the pirate movement/party decides to handle things differently, there should be absolutely no way to forbid the changes that are wanted.

2) The current statutes suffer on some flaws in the current statutes that makes me think we should delay the creation of the ASBL/VZW and I'll give only one example. We want to be able to receive subsidies. Well, @patrickinstalle came up with a rules that states that if you want to be able to receive at least some type of subsidies, a mention of respect of human rights should be mentionned in the statutes. This is not present in our statutes so one of the goal we are pursuing for the creation of the ASBL/VZW will not be fullfilled because we didn't work enough on those statutes. Add to this my first point and you have something completely flawed.

3) Also, the goal of this ASBL/VZW is not completely clear to me and I guess, to other people as well. Is it a ASBL/VZW that is going to work like a foudation (Linux Foundation, Wikimedia Foundation) that will provide administrative services for a project ( in our case, the pirate movementL/party that will still be the one making proposition to change the society) or is it an other type of organism that is itself making the proposition ? In the first case, I don't understand why there is such a detailed explanation of its inner structure, why we are talking about proposition and votes (those shouldn't be the responsability of the ASBL/VZW) and other things alike. On the second case, it is a clear change in the spirit that first animated us as only identified pirates can join the ASBL/VZW and that, in order to join this ASBL/VZW you need to be elected or selected by members of the ASBL/VZW. If we do this, we loose de facto the participative democracy we are trying to push. I just wanted to state this out loud.

Anyway, I will conclude with my own opinion so you know where I stand; I'm in favour of an ASBL/VZW that works like a foundation. So, it would give and administrative support to the pirates and it would still be the pirates movement/party that still take all the strategic decisions. I don't see this in the current statutes ... This ASBL/VZW seems to be more than that which doesn't raise an envy to defend the creation of the ASBL/VZW as it is in its current form. Let me insist on the fact that it is its current form that raises my concern. If we can modify the statues (and preferably before the ASBL/VZW exists), I would be glad and if some elements are clarified, I could even actively support the project.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sun 12 Feb 2017

Bezin voor je begint is beslist geen verkeerde houding. Voor ernstige zaken ga je niet over één nacht ijs...

Het oprichten van een vzw op zich is niet de moeilijke kwestie, maar het maken van de juiste keuze's inzake werking, statuten, vestiging of vestigingen enz zijn dat wel. Het kan nooit kwaad om in die materie eerst meer adviezen in te winnen zowel inzake goede werking als juridisch, dan hals over kop te verzanden zoals het nu is.

bvb indien Vlaamse subsidies worden beoogd...

Voor Vlaamse vzw...

http://www.sociaalcultureel.be/volwassenen/verenigingen_subsidievoorwaarden.aspx
http://www.sociaalcultureel.be/volwassenen/verenigingen_regelgeving.aspx

Hoe zit het dan voor de andere gewesten... Er bestaat ook de vorm van internationale vzw... enz.

Daarom lijkt het mij eerder zinvol om een nieuwe werkgroep op te richten, die nu meer gegrond een nieuw voorstel maakt.

Daarom .... Kunnen we deze ronde besluiten met het voorstel om een nieuwe werkgroep vzw samen te stellen, die verdere adviesen in wint, de heikel punten samen brengt en onderzoekt om dan met een beter uitgewerkt voorstel naar voren te komen?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sun 12 Feb 2017

@ Tim van Oosterwyck.... waarop rust jouw stelling dat de statuut voorstellen niet voor herziening vatbaar zijn?

A) We hebben inmiddels wel nota genomen dat de iniatiefnemer Jan Cabouter is gestaakt.

B ) Er is duidelijk verzet binnen de beweging omtrent de vorm waarop alles nu zou moeten worden gerealiseerd.

C) Er zijn ook onregelmatigheden in het tot stand komen van de laatste algemene vergadering van de piraten feitelijke vereniging.

J

Josse started a proposal Wed 15 Feb 2017

Jan Van Opstal makes a proposal for minor change of statutes Closed Sat 18 Feb 2017

As the statutes have been voted on the GA, by preference minor clarifying changes should be accepted. I suggest those discussed here should be proposed by Jan Van Opstal. If we can not accept Jan's proposal, we start another working group, if we can or Jan does not come with a proposal we start the vzw.

Results
Agree - 1
Abstain - 1
Disagree - 1
Block - 1
1 people have voted (2%)
J

Josse
Agree
Wed 15 Feb 2017

CC

Christophe Cop Thu 16 Feb 2017

I don't want to go in too much detail (I don't care about them I guess).

But here are my 2 cents:

  • Any ASBL/VZW that wants to be at service of the pirates can be created. It's not even necessary that all pirates agree with it. It can even be created by non-pirates.
  • Whether or not the pirate party Belgium wants to make use (any or all) of the services offered by the ASBL/VZW can only be decided in the GA/AV.
  • PPBe can give a list of criteria and/or desiderata for such a vzw/asbl.

  • Even if PPBe does not want to use the services of a vzw/asbl, crews and sub-groups still can. We pirates are free to organise ourselves, even if that leads to a chaos or opt-in systems or whatever.

So, as I see the urgent need for a VZW/ASBL for a lot of Pirates in Belgium, as that would help a lot for the financial management, it would be great for those pirates to have one.

I see a great benefit in having a bank account for the Antwerp pirates finances under a VZW.
The only thing is: I don't want to be a founding member, and don't want to be part of the board. I don't like administration and am convinced almost anybody else is better at it than I am.

There seems to me no reason what so ever to wait for everybody's approval. If a VZW exists and offers pirates to be the juridical person for their crew or squad or fleet accounts, then I will certainly make use of that service.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 18 Feb 2017

Wat is in een naam? Minor Change ....

Eerder in deze topic schreef ik:

"Het lijkt me veel beter dat we eerder zo goed of helemaal afstappen van de feitelijke vereniging (behoudens voor enkele bijzondere zaken, zoals privacy bescherming voor sommige piraten) en volledig werken binnen de nieuwe structuur.

Op die manier stellen er zich 'geen' mogelijke belangen conflicten. Al de piraten worden lid van de overkoepelende VZW. Zij vormen dan ook de algemene vergadering en beslissen dan ook over alle materie.

Dan nog kunnen er op lokaal vlak vzw's worden gemaakt, die deel uitmaken van de overkoepelende vzw."

Als dit als een "Minor Change" kan doorgaan, dan zie ik geen probleem met het voorstel dat Josse nu doet.

Het lijkt me wel erg belangrijk .... omdat op die manier er geen 2 entiteiten zijn, maw een diensten vzw die exclusief werkt voor de feitelijke vereniging. Maar slechts 1 rechtspersoonlijkheid. Ieder Piraat wordt dus lid vd Nationaal overkoepelende Piraat vzw. De nieuwe algemene vergadering is die dan van de vzw zelf.

De feitelijke vereniging kan steeds worden geactiveerd indien er zich bijzondere zaken voordoen dewelke niet in de vzw tot uiting kunnen komen.

Bijkomende wel "Minor Change" voorstel gaat hem over een betere verdeel sleutel wat betreft inkomende fondsen. Maar dat is geen statutaire kwestie.

TVO

Tim Van Oosterwyck Tue 21 Feb 2017

Dear all

Please note the meeting was planned for monday the 27th, NOT the 21st, as I mistakenly put in the initial thread topic. Thanks.

TF

Thierry Fenasse Tue 21 Feb 2017

Thanks for the notification!

I saw that @hgo did moved the wiki page / date AND ... tadaaaam the synchronization to my agenda (Thunderbird/Icedove) was automatically applied

That was a nice exemple of a «changing date meeting» and the wiki/calendar/sync functionnality as discovered in this loomio thread.

that was just a good exemple of how it is possible to do more than expected with a wiki ... based on the idea of a good, powefull, reliable and transparent-compliant tool :heart:

JVO

Jan Van Opstal started a proposal Sun 26 Feb 2017

Let's start a demining squad Closed Wed 1 Mar 2017

Let's start a demining squad to resolve conflicts regarding the creation of a National asbl/vzw in order to restore trust ....

Results
Agree - 3
Abstain - 3
Disagree - 3
Block - 3
5 people have voted (10%)
JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sun 26 Feb 2017

Saturday 25/02/2017 PirateLab Mechelen...

In order to work on a consensus regarding the creation of asbl/vzw structure for the Belgium Pirates ....

pending on the report off this meeting ...

It became clear that there are several issues regarding the initiative of 'some people' who wish to start-up this legal structure on 27/02/2017 ...

Koen De Vooght stated that there is sabotage and threated to take legal action.
On the otherhand he admitted himself to sabotage the transfer of piratepad to the new website.

So today it seems that @patrickinstalle threaten to refuses the transfer of the money, but still pays the running bills of the website.

On the otherhand Koen De Vooght refuses to transfer de data. Until now the pirates do not have access to their information. http://piratepad.be 21:24u no access error.

There are also different questions about important changes on the statutes of this asbl/vzw after Jan Cabooter ended his initiative. This is not conform the proposal presented on the GA. anymore.

Starting the ASBL/VZW under these conditions, lacking thrust, seems to be a very bad idea .... This could invoke a split in the movement and could damage and/or paralyse the Pirates ambitions.

Therefore it seems important to clear those issues. so I propose to create a demining squad ...

J

Josse
Disagree
Sun 26 Feb 2017

There is no problem in starting a vzw/asbl. The problem is about the responsibility it will take to do the administration of the account. There is no problem in discussing that tomorrow.

TVO

Tim Van Oosterwyck Mon 27 Feb 2017

All

It looks like Expression is closed today. I'm confused as it used to be open on mondays. Therefore we will take the meeting to the place right next to it, across the street. café de olifant.

TVO

Tim Van Oosterwyck
Abstain
Mon 27 Feb 2017

This could prove productive if current talks fail.

PD

Pascal Dk Mon 27 Feb 2017

So,

It looks like the statutes have been registered online tonight (line 26-27)
https://pad.pirateparty.be/p/vzw-asbl_21-02-2017

TF

Thierry Fenasse
Agree
Wed 1 Mar 2017

Even if it's on its way, even if it probably will be created as it is proposed, I still believe those statuts can be improved, maybe modified after (even if it cost a bunc of €, that will not be the main difficulty).

TF

Thierry Fenasse Wed 1 Mar 2017

The Beid where used to begin the registration on e-Greffe, probably not to sign (because I did not saw the PIN code typing).

This is the most recent version of the statuts Google Doc and I join the NL PDF version I recieved this morning.

Even if I do not «like those statuts» (but I'm not a legal expert), the vzw/asbl creation request was voted at the last GA. I can not see the votes count because the only trace is a «common souvenir» and a disapeard PAD.

But ... if this is the best we can do, let's start somewhere and try to fix and improve as we did in the it-squad and the wiki-squad.

H

HgO
Agree
Wed 1 Mar 2017

I feel that the conflicts are still presents, and won't be resolved just by creating the ASBL/VZW. It's a problem of people, so this should be solved by people.

H

HgO Wed 1 Mar 2017

I don't remember, did we vote on those exact statutes on the GA ? (just trolling)
All joking aside, I would really appreciate that @koendv put back pirate pad now that he got his ASBL.

PS

Pat Seynaeve
Agree
Wed 1 Mar 2017

Trying to find a consensus is a challenge but not impossible

TF

Thierry Fenasse Wed 1 Mar 2017

On the 27th of February 2017, in Mechelen, an Olifant begins to give birth to a Mermaid.

To follow the delivery : https://wiki.pirateparty.be/ASBL/VZW_creation

:elephant: :dancer_tone5:

J

Josse Sat 4 Mar 2017

Quelqu'un a commencé la traduction, mais celle dans le google doc original me semble mieux. (normalement c'était juste questions de comparer)

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 4 Mar 2017

en wat nu?

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sun 5 Mar 2017

Good question ...

According to the follow-up on this pad (copied here under) :

  • Statutes: finalize the official statutes, as the main seat is in Antwerp, it should be in Dutch ( @Koen ) -> done
  • finalize and correct the French version ( @josse ) -> done
  • bank account to be created:proposals: New B and Triodos, Argenta, ING -> don't know.

Maybe it will be discussed in the next meeting scheduled for the 14/03/2017 ...

H

HgO Wed 15 Mar 2017

Could someone explain me why the next meeting will be in Antwerpen (in a private place) instead of Mechelen, on 27th march 2017 ? Is there any GOOD reason for this ? I prefered Mechelen (and I'm not the only one to think this) because it was still possible to come from Wallonia. Yesterday, I was thinking about coming, but the time didn't suit me at all. Now, it is totally impossible to attend the next meeting for us...

So, I ask you to do the next ASBL/VZW meeting on 27th March 2017 in Mechelen instead of Antwerpen. Unless you have good reasons for that. Thank you.

J

Josse Sun 19 Mar 2017

I don't know either. Mechelen would make more sense. Otherwise I can pick you up in LLN if you want.

H

HgO Mon 20 Mar 2017

The issue is not to find a way to attend the meeting, because we will always manage to find someone with a car (although it's painful). No, the problem has more to do with the duration of the journey... I could also talk about the symbol behind this decision...

TVO

Tim Van Oosterwyck Tue 11 Apr 2017

On the topic of demining. We agree it is a good idea to start this. I will be part of this initiative myself. More to come. :)