Loomio
Tue 30 Sep 2014 10:09PM

Why the distinction between "Disagree" and "Block"?

DN Diogo Nunes Public Seen by 278

The first time I used Loomio I was right away confused by the distinction between Disagree and Block when voting on "decisions".

If I support the proposal, I "Agree".
If I don't have an opinion, I "Abstain".
If I reject the proposal, I "Disagree".

Why the need for a "Block" decision? If I disagree, of course I want to block it, it's implied! If I find the need to detail my "disagree" I'll leave a comment. Breaking up the votes into two simillar choices seems counter-productive and counter-intuitive to me.

RJ

Raphaël Jadot Tue 30 Sep 2014 10:31PM

When you disagree, you only express your opinion and may accept that most people agree and that you may be in minority.

When you block, you clearly have a reason to say that whatever is the repartition of people that agree or disagree, the proposal can't be (in your opinion) validated.

TF

Torsten Fischer Tue 30 Sep 2014 10:36PM

This distinction is necessary because it offers you a nuanced expression. Basically disagree allows you to note your opposition, while accepting the majority's choice. Meaning you'd still carry out the decision. Block means you won't and abstain means you don't care (and won't care).

T

Tree Tue 30 Sep 2014 11:36PM

This is a great question, Diogo, that gets at the difference between consensus and voting for decisions. I think Loomio was developed with an intention to be neutral and support either choice. In consensus decision-making, the option to say "i think this is a bad idea, but i'm still willing to carry it out if that is the will of the group after listening to my reasons" is extremely important. Some people, such as Sam Kaner, suggest that having even more than 4 options serves better. For example, scroll down on this page to the face sketches: http://www.ecovillagenewsletter.org/wiki/index.php/Kommune_Niederkaufungen%E2%80%99s_New_Decision-Making_Method.

In classical consensus process the only way one can block a decision is if it goes against the basic values of the group or would lead to a catastrophic (not just crappy) outcome.

For lots more info on consensus, see my website http://treegroup.info/topics/, especially under the topics Consensus and Blocking.

AC

Ariane Cherbuliez Tue 30 Sep 2014 11:41PM

I do think that Diogo is pointing to something important here, which is that while this distinction is clear and necessary for those who had answers, it won't be intuitive for many users. If people hover over the hands, they see a pop-up explanation that's pretty helpful, and I expect that the individual words themselves don't do it.

RN

Rob Nevin Wed 1 Oct 2014 12:12AM

Think of it this way.

I agree. This is obvious.
I abstain. You are deciding to withhold your vote either under protest or so as not to obscure the groups response. You are agreeing to follow the groups decision.
I disagree. You are casting a negative vote but agree to abide by the group decision.
I block. In this case you have the strongest negative opinion on the proposal and will not accept the groups decision.

There is a subtle but important distinction between "I disagree" and "I block". It rests in the residual feeling of the voter with respect to the group decision.

The above is my own opinion and my interpretation of the intention of the somewhat unusual but wonderful 4 vote choices.

BC

Boaz Chen Wed 1 Oct 2014 5:29AM

On small scale it's quite clear (the line between "I prefer not" and "I'll be offended if"), but it's less important since the difference may be expressed in the comments.

On bigger scale it's harder to align the line between the two and it gives more power to negative minority.

What I find problematic is that it's on the same level as the others. Maybe it should be a similar to 'flag' or an option in the 'disagree'.

DN

Diogo Nunes Sun 19 Oct 2014 2:53PM

Voting choices should be objective and limited. That's why referendums have Yes or No, not the 50 shades of choices mentioned by @treebressen . When the voter has to decide between disagree and strongly disagree (block), he/she will make a subjective guess. And negative votes will be randomly divided between two similar choices, reducing the decisions' expressiveness.

Example for majority-based decision:
10% Abstain, 40% Yes, 50% No - No wins.
10% Abstain, 40% Yes, 30% No, 20% Block - Yes wins.
Total different outcomes, so this isn't merely a word problem.

@raphaeljadot I understand your explanation, but I disagree. When I take a decision (agree, disagree, block) I "clearly have a reason to do so". If I think "the proposal shouldn't be valid" then I'll flag it and explain why. You may argue that "blocking" works the same as "flagging", fine but then it blocking should appear in the pie chart.

I propose that Loomio's default should be "Yes, No, Abstain", with a flagging system. Optionally, the community may create create different "flavors" of Yes and No.

DN

Poll Created Sun 19 Oct 2014 2:57PM

When voting a proposal, Loomio's default choices should be Yes, No, Abstain. Remove "Block" choice. Closed Wed 22 Oct 2014 6:37PM

Outcome
by Diogo Nunes Mon 27 Feb 2017 10:21PM

"Block" is a fundamental tool for concensus decisions since it provides a way for participants to flag invalid decisions and "block" their acceptance. It's also the last resort for minorities to be heard.

Decisions are invalid and in need of "blocking" when they are wrong from the start - e.g. a decision that wouldn't solve things, or would make things worse, or is highly biased.

Voting choices should be objective and limited. When I take a decision (agree, disagree, block) I clearly have a reason and that's the only outcome I want.
If I think the proposal is invalid or nonsense, I'll flag the proposal for moderation. Therefore, "Block" is redudant and should be removed.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 4.0% 1 DN
Abstain 4.0% 1
Disagree 32.0% 8 KA SR C T JW LG DU AW
Block 60.0% 15 AI TA ST J CZ HM SF RN JK CT FS DN EG PF DG
Undecided 0% 876 RG JV KC JC AT BK AC MB CWH BH G JG DS MS AC DB CR J DS S

25 of 901 people have participated (2%)

JK

Joop Kiefte (LaPingvino)
Block
Sun 19 Oct 2014 3:22PM

Block is very important in my opinion. Loomio is about reconsidering with new information: disagree means that you don't like it, but you would agree reluctantly if all agree. Block means that it wouldn't solve things, or make things worse.

T

Tekarihoken
Disagree
Sun 19 Oct 2014 3:30PM

According to me "Block" means that the proposition is a nonsense.
This will mean that agree and disagree cannot be a good solution.

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