Loomio

Universal allowance/Basic income.

DJ David Johnston Public Seen by 253

A universal allowance is a benefit that is paid to all New Zealander's - retirees, low income earners, high income earners, invalids, unemployed, students, solo parents, and replaces existing benefits (unemployment benefit, DPB*, pension, sickness benefit, working for families, student allowance).

There are no requirements, all New Zealand citizens (18 and up*) are entitled to receive it.

The rate would be about the same as the existing unemployment benefit (around $200-250/wk pp).

When people work, the money they earn, is earned on top of the universal allowance. The tax rate is hiked to cover the benefit paid to everyone.

Gareth Morgan advocates such a system, with a flat tax afterward.

http://www.bigkahuna.org.nz/universal-basic-income.aspx

Addressing the immediate objections:

  • How do we afford this?

We increase income tax, which doesn't affect workers, because they're now getting an extra basic income. For example, if currently you are a worker earning $500/wk being taxed 20%, so your take home is $400.

In this system, a worker might earn $200 basic income, and $500 a week taxed at 60%, so their take home pay is the same.

Assuming that everybody who currently is working, still works, then theoretically it's possible to implement this system without any change to the basic tax burden/benefits of people. (That's a drastic simplification, but the idea is the same).

  • People will just stop working and live on the benefit, if they're not subject to having to look for a job.

No they won't. People are still better off working. Some people might. For example, they might use it as an opportunity to try a business venture, or become an artist, knowing that they won't starve if it fails. Other people, are already gaming the benefit/sickness benefit system.

Advantages of such a system:

  • Reduce the cost of administering social welfare. Because beneficiaries are no longer subject to eligibility criteria, the bureaucracy associated with administering WINZ is drastically reduced. The payment becomes an automatic thing through IRD.

  • Reduce the hypocrisy of social welfare. Social welfare currently is riddled with incentivising dishonesty. For example people finding sympathetic doctors to sign sickness certificates, or lying about having a partner as to maximise their benefit.

  • Allow workers freedom of movement. Workers can take a chance moving someone where to look for work, knowing that they won't starve.

  • Allow economic innovation. Entrepreneurs can try their hand at business, knowing they won't starve if it fails.

Pensions:

This would reduce pensions to current unemployment benefit levels. I think this is reasonable.

*DPB: This is a bug bear of this system. Personally, I'm in favour of removing the DPB. I think the DPB allows people to have children in irresponsible circumstances, by making being a parent being a full time paying job, that one can't be fired from.

The (hard) system I propose, individual adults are still entitled to basic income. Children are not entitled to an income, until they are 18. Perhaps working for families can still exist, to help lower wage earners. To look after a child, parents need to either have a job, or pay for it out of their basic income. This shifts the responsibility for having a child on the parent, and hopefully disuades them from having children if they can't afford it. If people are struggling looking after children on basic income, they can get support from their family and community and charity.

Ofcourse, DPB shouldn't be cut off straight away, it should be phased out.

I'm aware that this is quite hard position, so if you think the idea otherwise have merits, then let me know what you think on this point.

Other issues to discuss:

The tax burden. Gareth Morgan advocates a flat tax on top of the basic income, but I think that's a bit unfair on lower wage earners. I still advocate a progressive tax system. Unless you had another scheme like a subsidised house buying scheme to help lower wage earners.

WV

Wade Vuglar Tue 29 Jul 2014 1:17AM

I agree with the basics of this proposal.

I don't believe we need to increase taxes to pay for this, we can have the Reserve Bank of New Zealand create the money. They have the power to do this.

Here are some interesting discussions going on in Canada about the same subject:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcaYv8yV1ZlpjcDC0okvwUA

DJ

David Johnston Tue 29 Jul 2014 1:43AM

@wadevuglar You can't just print money to pay for things indefinitely, that ruins your currency like it did in Zimbabwe and Wiemar Republic.

NT

Nick Taylor Tue 29 Jul 2014 4:57AM

UBI is something that turns up fairly frequently in conversations these days - basically because the value of humans is going down.

Put simply, the industrial era saw people being forced off the land, and into factories - they needed to earn wages from the ruling class so they could pay rent to the ruling class.

So today, the industrial era is ending - the ruling class no longer need the workers, but they still want the rent.

Taxing labour to pay a UBI, about 50%? 75%? 95%? of which goes straight to landlords is a fucking abomination.

While a UBI is possibly a good idea (although it does look a bit like bread and circuses) - it does have to be paid for with a land-value tax... as well as taxes on other forms of unearned income, eg: usury, cost-externalisation (eg: environmental/health damage), mineral-extraction etc etc.

UBI is part of a formula - it's actually less important than radically restructuring the tax system. Nothing is going to work out until we get rid of the housing market.

NC

Nobilangelo Ceramalus Tue 29 Jul 2014 6:01AM

If you think people would 'not starve' if all they had was the equivalent of the dole, or that pensioners could live on the same amount of money, you obviously have never tried it. Rent/mortgage, power, phone and transport swallow far more. Then there is the small problem of eating. The idea is intriguing, but it needs to be fair--which means treating people as if they deserved to be alive. The fundamental principle of law has to be obeyed: 'recognition of the inherent dignity and worth of the human person', spelt out in all United Nations instruments, and underlined by the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (which affirms our commitment to ICOCAPR).

IK

Ian Kiddle Tue 29 Jul 2014 6:18AM

I think this has merit as society has to move to a low or no growth model given the resource scarcity problem. This would allow those who wish to work the opportunity to do so and also allow those who are happy to live less work driven lives the opportunity to do so also. Beneficiaries pensioners and so on could also live with dignity

DU

William Asiata Tue 29 Jul 2014 12:23PM

A UBI is equivalent to having a tax free bracket for the annual income that the UBI is equivalent to.
I think we should have a 100% tax for all earned income in a given "tax free" bracket range, and then a UBI is administered to everybody. Eg. Mana advocates for a tax free bracket of $27000/year, which means that everyone would actually be taxed for any earned income up to about $520/week, and then receive a UBI of about $520/week. Alternatively, people with lesser earned income could instead be supplemented which tops them up to $520/week.

And there would be greater taxation rates on any income above the "tax free" bracket.

WV

Wade Vuglar Tue 29 Jul 2014 10:13PM

@davidjohnston You are correct, it can cause problems with inflation, however, there are means to control inflation etc. The Social Credit system of economics provides such controls.

DJ

David Johnston Tue 29 Jul 2014 10:32PM

@williamasiata Not exactly the same, as a UBI also replaces the dole/student allowance/pension etc.

DU

William Asiata Tue 29 Jul 2014 10:55PM

Yes, a UBI has broader reach.

CD

Colin Davies Thu 31 Jul 2014 6:15AM

UBI, Yes. but a lot of other things would need to change in concert with the UBI introduction.
This is a big paradigm shift for any country, but best we do it sooner than later.

Load More