Loomio
Thu 15 May 2014 9:57PM

Net Neutrality

AB Adam Bullen Public Seen by 179

With the FCC in the US voting on net neutrality and the Europe recently voting to protect net neutrality. This is a timely issue.

What is the current state of net neutrality in NZ?

I assume all PPNZ members support net neutrality.

HM

Hubat McJuhes Sun 18 May 2014 3:57AM

@davidpeterson You have oftenly refused to provide arguments for your views with the comment that the discussion would not be a matter of Pirate Parties core policies.

Now here we go: net neutrality - the center of the core of policies of the world wide pirate movement!

If you want to convince us that PPNZ should not stand tall for net neutrality and therefore oppose the whole Pirate Parties of the world, then it is here and now that you may want to show us your talent to argue seriously.

BRING IT ON!

HM

Hubat McJuhes Sun 18 May 2014 4:16AM

@davidpeterson You metaphor of courier services is inappropriate. To bend it into the comparability zone, it would look like the following:
Each household has to pay a monthly fee to have their address registered as a potential target for delivery. The amount of the fee depends on the maximum number of parcels that the household is prepared to receive per month.
A sender of a parcel doesn't need to pay for the delivery. But in this case it is left to the couriers discretion when the parcel gets delivered; he may as well decide to simply throw the parcel away without further notice.
So if a sender wants to ensure that a parcel actually gets delivered or that it gets delivered in a certain time frame, the sender has to pay an extra fee for this 'premium' service.
Worst: as a customer you may have a choice of different courier services which may vary in the the fees charged, but they all operate in the same system; so you have no chance to choose a different delivery model.

HM

Hubat McJuhes Sun 18 May 2014 5:02AM

net neutrality for dummies:

The internet is designed as a peer-to-peer network. Technically every node is as much a (potential) content provider as he is a consumer. Everyone in the world can pull information from the net as well as add more information to the net. This is what the WorldWideWeb on top if the internet is about. A network of equal information nodes. this is what the www sets apart from any other machine that human mankind has ever produced and where the hopes for a more equal world in which each and everyone is empowered to participate stems from.

During the last 15 years or so, a handful of big players have established services for the masses, that have effectively established a client-server model on top of the p2p layer of the www. In using these services, people don't use the emancipatory potential of the www to the full extend. They except a usage scheme that is more like broadcasting with a back channel.
People are free to do so. Companies are free to establish client-server solutions over the most flexible device that the internet is, and customers are free to use these services. Fair enough. In the internet, there is room for all sort of things and business models.

Then comes the node that says: 'Other nodes shall not need to pay for their traffic with me. I am the ueber-node; I will pay for them.'

Then comes the ISP that says: 'Customer: You can have the internet as you know it for $xxx. Or you can have "free" (as in beer - quite the contrary from as in freedom) internet, which is facebook and facebook alone.'

Then comes big company A and corp M and S and G saying: 'Oops, that's no good. We need to do the same to stay in business'

Then comes ISP2 and says: Dear customer: 'My internet is free-er (as in more beer), now new and improved: facebook, iCloud, google and spotify!'

This cycle iterates a number of time.

This is, when > 80% of the people will never get sober enough with all the free beer around to recognise what has happened to their freedom in the internet. They will not be customers anymore (nor citicens) - but the product. Consumers. Couch potatoes again.

During the whole time, the price for free (as in freedom) internet for the few that use it p2p will have been rising and rising. Until the ISP will finally say: 'We have invested all our money in providing best services for our real customers, the big content providers. These investments where in devices that support the client-server paradigm better. The old style TCP/IP network infrastructure on which everything is build on top of, seems actually pretty archaic to us now. We drop support for it in favour of genuine client-server technologies and protocols.'

And then they simply switch the www off.

The net is now the spider-web of the matrix.

Will we then want the blue or the red pill?
Or do we prefer to not let any of this happen in he first place?

AB

Adam Bullen Mon 19 May 2014 5:57AM

Whilst I like the debate about net neutrality and everyone should be pretty clear on where I stand on the issue.

Can someone in the know post some links etc...stating the current NZ position on net neutrality. I did a brief search last week but didn't turn up anything definitive.

HM

Hubat McJuhes Mon 19 May 2014 7:28AM

@adambullen I also cannot find a trace of an explicit position on net neutrality of the PPNZ.

But I recall vaguely that there has been a mechanism established at one point in time that wherever PPNZ doesn't define an explicit position for itself in PP core positions, PPNZ defaults to the lowest common denominator amongst Pirate Parties worldwide.

A quick search reveals how much of an issue net neutrality is and how uniformly the support for it is, everywhere between Uruguay and Latislava.

HM

Hubat McJuhes Mon 19 May 2014 7:41AM

@petercummuskey, @davidpeterson Find attached a study of the European Parliament about net neutrality issues in EU and US.

As a starter you may want to read this summary and statement from fellow Pirate Christan Engtrom MEP about this study:
https://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/eu-study-on-net-neutrality/

Also note that the study is from 2011 and even though the outcome then was to not suggest any further regulation until the protective measures of 2009 proved to be not sufficient, the European Parliament just recently has enforced it's protection of net neutrality. Probably for a reason, I guess.
http://politics.slashdot.org/story/14/04/03/1224200/european-parliament-votes-for-net-neutrality-forbids-mobile-roaming-costs

HM

Hubat McJuhes Mon 19 May 2014 7:55AM

@adambullen In addition to the to my earlier comment:

PPI maintains a comparison of PP manifestos where 'Preservation of Net Neutrality' is listed under 'Common stances'.
http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance

AR

Andrew Reitemeyer Tue 20 May 2014 7:44PM

The Pirate Parties of Europe PPDE explicitly details net neutrality as a common policy.
http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=programme:conferences:ceep_online2013#net_neutrality

PPUK is also campaigning on a net neutrality platform.
https://pirateparty.org.uk/tags/net-neutrality

PPAU also is fighting agianst Telstra's moves to break net neutrality
http://pirateparty.org.au/category/net-neutrality/

To not take a stand on the preservation and ensuring of net neutrality would be a major departure from the direction of the world Pirate Movement.

AR

Poll Created Tue 20 May 2014 7:50PM

PPNZ supports net neutrality Closed Fri 23 May 2014 7:07PM

Outcome
by Andrew Reitemeyer Tue 25 Apr 2017 5:22AM

The Pirate Party of New Zealand supports the principle of net neutrality. However, some work would be needed to define the technical aspects required for a robust legislative proposal.

The Pirate Party of New Zealand calls for the principle of net neutrality to be enshrined in law and international treaties. This should be a part of an Internet Bill of Rights.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 87.5% 7 DU KT HM BK RU AB PC
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 12.5% 1 DP
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 34 AR J AJ TF TJ CM BV M PA M B JB PY P JP RF CM MJS FS DU

8 of 42 people have participated (19%)

BK

Bruce Kingsbury
Agree
Wed 21 May 2014 12:28AM

Any prioritizing of traffic should be based on protocol alone and done for the purpose of improving an ISP's customer experience. We need Neutrality between competing services and providers, but we don't want to ban QoS.

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