Loomio
September 1st, 2017 05:52

Immigration

Jourdan Turner
Jourdan Turner Public Seen by 417

I would love to ignite a discussion among the interested, about Immigration. Where we're at now, and we're we would like ourselves to get too as a country.

Jourdan Turner

Jourdan Turner September 1st, 2017 05:58

First and foremost, I believe our current Immigration system can and should be improved. I feel that our country focuses a lot on foreign aid, rallying for internationals to seek refuge here, and welcoming foreigners with open arms to create a new life for them in Aotearoa.

I am supportive of the notion to create our country as a safe haven, where people can come here and create better lives for them an their family, however there needs to be an absolute balance. We need to be able to do the above for OUR PEOPLE first.

Homelessness, housing, poverty are all issues that we need to address before we can even promote our country as being an environment to live in. Because quite frankly, if we cannot take care of our own citizens, how are we to tend to the needs of others?

Just a few ideas that I have in my head. I would love to see a healthy discussion on what others think, and come up with a collective thought in order to initiate a policy that's crowd sourced from the opinions of others. Because what better way to solve a problem, with the people directly impacted by the affect.

IA

idiom axiom September 1st, 2017 08:09

Immigration is bad for the poor here, and bad for everyone in their home countries:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/Documents/workingpapers/2015/swp574.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

BC

ben cooney September 1st, 2017 08:58

As a absolute internationalist and a firm beliver in multiculturalism. I feel that a chill on migrants is a step backwards. I feel that our country can only and will only benefit from new creeds, foods, faces, ideas. We are a very very young country in the scheme if things. And in many many ways are ideologically antiquated. I do agree that a new way forward needs to happen. However this shouldnt be a reactionary nationalist, protectionist ideolog... Sure? Auckland is broken... We all know this... And yup we need a break. Our cities population has grown by 46k in the last 6 months and we simply cant cope.. However this doesnt mean "dem immigantz thum thur beez sturlin mah jerb". That narritive is toxic and simply untrue.. What needs to happen is the point system needs adjustment. Where migrants are pushed to the provinces where there needs to be a revitalisation and new streams of ecconomic growth explored. I would argue that new migrants are given a 5 year caveat and incentivised to move to the small towns and cities and bring their world view and cultural heritage and diversity to tbese areas. It will only make our country better and stronger moving forward

Colin England

Colin England September 2nd, 2017 00:56

I feel that a chill on migrants is a step backwards. I feel that our country can only and will only benefit from new creeds, foods, faces, ideas.

You're deluding yourself. The simple fact of the matter is that immigration costs a huge amount in necessary infrastructure and services to support them. There are benefits but, from what I can make out, not enough to cover the costs.

And that's before we get into how many people we can support here.

However this shouldnt be a reactionary nationalist, protectionist ideolog... Sure?

Actually, we do need to protect our environment and our resources so that we use them sustainably. That's not optional.

However this doesnt mean "dem immigantz thum thur beez sturlin mah jerb". That narritive is toxic and simply untrue..

Actually, indications are that it is true:

Treasury warns of risk to jobs from immigration
Treasury on immigration, productivity and real wages

The evidence is fully against your belief that immigration is always good. And that's from the most pro-immigration department in the country.

It will only make our country better and stronger moving forward

No, it really won't. Indications are that it's making us weaker as a nation while putting massive stress on the people already here.

BC

ben cooney September 2nd, 2017 01:38

With all due respect Colin i fundamentally disagree.

Im not deluding my self in wanting a diverse and vibrant society where all people are welcome..

Yes treasury are pontificating on fear and disaster if mote immigrants come here and take low skilled jobs... But? Thats how they roll.. I think a wsy beyond this attack on our society by immigration thus creating low wages and lack of jobs is by educating new migrants of their rights as workers and by unionisation. This is the safty net for all of us that is never explained. This along with the abolition of zero hour contracts would see a strengthening of conditions.. As workers either a new migrant or born and bred we shoukd be organised and we should unite and by doing this we will hold the bosses at bay..

Yes auckland is screwed.. It is and when you live here you see it everyday... However. Tge provinces are slowly falling to ruin.. We need more people in small towns. We need more development there. We need more people to do the things thay we won't ie be the market gardeners or create new factiries or businesses or restaurants or communities. This is what our country needs.
We cant be all jack booted and verging towards the right.. Its a false ideology and seeks nothing but fear and Disinfo...

Further more who shoukd these unwanted migrants be? And why? Should we say "if your from europe its fine but from asia tbe doors shut" . To me thats a really negative path to even begin to traverse.. Its fundamentally wrong and opens s hidious putrid can of hate...

Thanks by the way fir the links... Heres some i found for context and reality

For example in the year ending June 2017 there were:

131,400 migrant arrivals, of 6.53 million arrivals (2.0 percent of all arrivals)
59,100 migrant departures, of 6.46 million departures (0.9 percent of all departures
http://m.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/Migration.aspx

Top Five Source Countries for Migrants 2001 – 2016

https://www.enz.org/migrants.html
Country Long Term Gain 2016
India 11,300
China 10,100
Philippines 4,900
United Kingdom 4,400
South Africa 3,200
Country Long Term Gain 2015
India 12,600
China 8,200
Philippines 4,500
United Kingdom 4,000
Germany 2,800
Country Long Term Gain 2014
India 7,700
China 6,600
United Kingdom 5,500
Philippines 3,100
Germany 2,300
Country Long Term Gain 2013
United Kingdom 6,400
China 5,400
India 5,200
Philippines 2,100
Germany 1,900
Country Long Term Gain 2012
United Kingdom 5,500
China 5,100
India 5,100
Philippines 2,000
Germany 1,600
Country Long Term Gain 2011
India 5,800
United Kingdom 5,400
China 4,500
Philippines 1,800
Germany 1,400
Country Long Term Gain 2010
United Kingdom 6,800
India 5,600
China 3,500
Philippines 1,500
Germany 1,400
Country Long Term Gain 2009
United Kingdom 9,300
India 6,000
China 3,600
Philippines 3,200
Fiji 2,900. We are a country that has MORE than enough space and resources for a larger population... In area we are bigger than the uk with a third of the population.. We can afford and should afford more people... Super diversity is amazing... Just go to any city around the world, and now also in auckland and the beautiful realities of life in a world where this is the norm is oy going to be a benefit to us all

IA

idiom axiom September 2nd, 2017 05:51

That immigrants depress wages is empirically true. But you can ignore the data if you like.

The idea that you can save 3.5 billion people by moving them to New Zealand is compassion gone mental.

Is South Africa better off because Elon Musk emigrated and built his companies in a western country? We are stripping the developing world of its best and brightest, making the problems worse for them and for us.

We are 22% foreign born, only exceeded by Israel and Luxembourg, both special case.

Our country is already in ecological overshoot, because we already support a huge population with our exports. Those countries with super high density exist because of our low density.

Colin England

Colin England September 2nd, 2017 22:45

Then you're disagreeing with reality and that really isn't going to get us anywhere.

Yes treasury are pontificating on fear and disaster if mote immigrants come here and take low skilled jobs... But? Thats how they roll..

No, that's not how they roll. They've spent decades telling us we need more people and that immigration was the best way to get them.

I think a wsy beyond this attack on our society by immigration thus creating low wages and lack of jobs is by educating new migrants of their rights as workers and by unionisation.

As much as I'm in favour of unionisation and better worker education that's a load of bollocks. We need to diversify our economy rather than trying trying to employ more people all doing the same stuff.

We need more people in small towns. We need more development there.

The only way to improve the provinces is to turn them into cities. It's not the regions themselves that are falling to ruin but that farming doesn't employ anywhere near as much of the population as it once did and, as productivity increases and expansion of farming decreases because we've run out of land, they'll continue to decline - unless we turn them into cities.

We need more people to do the things thay we won't ie be the market gardeners or create new factiries or businesses or restaurants or communities. This is what our country needs.

No we don't. To be more precise, our high productivity tells us that we don't need more people to be able to do that. What we need is to remove a lot of people from uneconomic activities such as all the excessive farming. That'd free up around 5% of the population to do other stuff with our resources. Factories need to be researched by government to be fully automated 3D printing based so as to reduce the number of people employed at them while making them flexible enough to produce anything.

Restaurants may come about if our productivity gets high enough to free up enough of percentage of the population.

Heres some i found for context and reality

That was just stats out of context and divorced from reality.

We are a country that has MORE than enough space and resources for a larger population...

Prove it. As in cite the peer reviewed research detailing how many people that this country can sustainably carry.

Britain can't feed itself.

the beautiful realities of life in a world where this is the norm is oy going to be a benefit to us all

And there you're spouting delusional belief again. Malthus was actually right - there are limits and you're ignoring them to the point where you're not even looking to see what those limits are.

Colin England

Colin England September 2nd, 2017 22:49

The idea that you can save 3.5 billion people by moving them to New Zealand is compassion gone mental.

Empathy is bad

Effective Altruism