So, when you look now to this thread: this is why it don't work. I tooks 16 days to have 3 agree's to simply correct a typo issue. The only discussion was to move this thread to another location.
And that is typical "pirates": instead to discuss about the facts and content and searching solutions, we discuss about structure and other details.
The protocol is too slow and focus about the form instead of the content.
I suppose when someone post a item that he want to improve, he already has thought about it and have a idea for a solution.
So it come in the brainstorming zone, where everybody can react: some discuss about content, form and give their ideas: everybody act like we are in debat zone, and that is normal: when somebody post a item, brains start working to help find a good solution, when you stop this proces by saying: "hey, you have to wait before thinking, first we have to decide if it's good formulated and only if you find 3 other ones you can open your mouth. So you'll wait till everybody has his word about the form and if he will endorse or not.
Then you'll have to wait to discuss till everybody has his say about again the form?
Then we come in the debating zone: in the mean time everybody has lost his interest, or they have said their vision in the level before, and you can't always repeat what you've said. It slow down the discussion and decision proces and makes that this tool is not popular.
My proposition:
We need a forum-like discussion platform, where we can decide a communal view, a action, a strategie, an idea, (and not only to prepare a GA).
The protocol slows down the creative thinking proces and is the cause that many thoughts and ideas (proposals?) are lost in the slow down proces of the protocol.
Maybe it's better that everyone can start a proposal in the proposal zone. Last active items comes above the list, so this is a first automatic filter. When it has to be reformulated, then reformulated it, the one with the most likes will win if there's no consensus. Keep it simple, please. So the drafting zone is unnecessary.
1) Post in the proposal Zone (brainstorming)
Formalise, develop, clarify, translate here. When 3 people think that the idea is consistent and clear enough to be debated, then the idea moves to the debating zone
2) Defend your idea in the Debating Zone
The goal here is to find a workable consensus about everybody's vision. Ideas debated here can be presented to the General Assembly, sorted by popularity, but can serve other goals too, like the different vision's of a UBI, How preparing next elections, organise a multimedia-team, …
3) Following up the idea in the Executing zone or sort it in GA, ToDo, Opinions, Labs&Squads
The accepted ideas can been followed up here, indicate the responsibles, give comments and remarks, posts and discuss difficulties, or just keep in contact and give transparency with other members who are interest in the project, …

For what you propose we need a «next gen» forum like Discourse or NodeBB or anyhing that can raise user rights automatically according to their usage, some gamification and a nice look and feel.

We do not have that kind of tools and that is «a tension». :dromedary_camel:

@vanecx and @pattico and everyone else ...
The place you talk about is this one : Permanent Assembly

About varia and non decision

There is a non decision sub-group and a varia sub-group wich have, both of them, according to my understanding, the same purpose as Permanent Assembly, the parent group.

Because Loomio is a «propose / decide» oriented tool, it's irrelevant to have a «non decision» group or sub-group because if there is no PROPOSAL (votes), there is NOTHING to decide. That means that EVERY THREAD is a non decision discussion until someone starts a proposal.

About LVL1,2,3

The LVL1: Brainstorming, LVL2: Drafting Zone and LVL3: Debating Zone are sub-groups of the «open-bar» Permanent Assembly. Those 3 LEVELS sub-group are General Assembly oriented... in the idea of avoiding debates during a GA.

About any othes groups or sub groups

non exhaustive list
* UBI Squad
* Website Squad
* Pirates de Liège and all its sub groups
* Équipage BW & sympatisants and all its sub groups
* etc

Those are crew, squad or topic oriented.

So why my proposal?

Because Permanent Assembly offers exactly the same as non decision and varia, I had the idea to merge one to he other and maybe remove both of them to keep just Permanent Assembly

And what else ?

Modify the description of the Permanent Assembly to have a better presentation of Loomio and the way it's *«organized».

So if you can change your minds and agree, that would be nice!
I do not take it personally if you don't. :heart:

For a usage of Loomio

Loomio is not a forum or a chat room but a tool that can help with decision-making when there are tensions.

• If you have nothing to decide or if the job you are trying to accomplish is not «likely to bring a tension» do not create a thread.

• If you consider that the work you are trying to accomplish might bring tensions, then Loomio may be of use to you.

Post a new thread ?

Regardless of the group or subgroup, each discussion can be moved if necessary.

Use the subject and description (which can be modified by the person creating the thread or by a moderator) to describe as accurately as possible your project, goal, or whatever you are trying to achieve. Do not hesitate to put links to useful information and other collaborative tools such as a pad, a wiki page, a irc channel, a shared document, or other useful resources to achieve your goal(s).

No tension?

If there is no tension in your project, this subject and description will simply serve as a «presentation page» of your goals and links to other tools or resources.

The thread still available for possible exchanges of comments, or questions / answers WITHOUT the slightest proposal awaiting a vote.

Tensions?

If your project encounters one or more tensions, they can only be solved one by one, which is why a thread of discussion only offers one proposal at a time. Feel free to keep a list of tensions either in the comments, in the description, or elsewhere.

If you can not overcome a tension, you will have to build a proposal that will have to be voted on. The thread always provides room for exchanging comments or questions / answers while a proposal is in progress.

An initiated proposal can not be modified (except for its deadline), if it is not appropriate, it must be rejected and replaced by a new and better adapted proposal. During the vote, each user has the right to a small comment (250 characters) to accompany his position with a small remark or appreciation. And as a reminder, it is better to build a proposal BEFORE putting it to the vote.

The terms of the vote (consensus, majority, forbearance, duration of voting, etc.) should be defined.

• Either for each proposal individually and in this case included in the text of the proposal.
• Either for all the propositions of a thread of discussion and in this case inscribed in the description of the thread.
• Let for all the propositions of all the threads of discussion of the subgroup and in this case inscribed in the description of the subgroup.
• Let for all the propositions of all the threads of discussion of all the subgroups and in this case inscribed in the description of the parent group.

Pour une utilisation de Loomio

Loomio n'est pas un forum ni un salon mais un outil qui peut aider à la prise de décision lorsqu'il y a des tensions.

• Si vous n'avez rien à décider ou si le travail que vous chercher à accomplir ne «risque pas d'amener une tension» ne créez pas de fil de discussion.
• Si vous envisagez que le travail que vous cherchez à accomplir pourrait amener des tensions, alors Loomio peut vous être utile.

Démarrer une discussion?

Peu importe le groupe ou le sous groupe puisque chaque fil de discussions peut être déplacé si nécessaire.

Utilisez le sujet et la description (qui peuvent être modifiés par la personne qui crée le fil ou par un modérateur) pour décrire le plus précisément possible votre projet, objectif, ou quoi que ce soit que vous cherchez à atteindre. N'hésitez pas à mettre des liens vers des informations utiles et vers d'autres outils de collaboration comme un pad, une page d'un wiki, un cannal irc, un document partagé, ou tout autres ressources utiles à votre ou vos objectifs.

Aucune tension ?

Dés lors, si aucune tension n'apparaît lors de la réalisation de votre projet, ce sujet et cette description serviront simplement de «page de présentation» de vos objectifs et de liens vers d'autres outils ou ressources.

Le fil de discussions laissera la place pour d'éventuels échanges de commentaires, ou de questions/réponses SANS la moindre proposition attendant un vote.

Tensions?

Si votre projet rencontre une ou plusieurs tensions, elles ne peuvent être résolues qu'une par une et c'est pourquoi un fil de discussion n'offre qu'une proposition à la fois. Libre à vous de tenir une liste de tensions soit dans les commentaires, soit dans la description, soit ailleurs.

Si vous ne parvenez pas à bout d'une tension, il vous faudra construire une proposition qui devra alors être votée. Le fil de discussion offrant toujours la place pour échanger des commentaires ou des questions/réponses pendant qu'une proposition est en cours.

Une proposition enclenchée ne peut pas être modifiée (sauf son délais), si elle ne convient pas, elle devra être rejetée et remplacée par une nouvelle proposition mieux adaptée. Lors de son vote, chaque utilisateur à droit à un petit commentaire (250 caractères) pour accompagner sa prise de position d'une petite remarque ou appréciation. Et pour rappel, mieux vaut construire une proposition AVANT de la soumettre au vote.

Les modalités du vote (consensus, majorité, abstention autorisées, durée du vote ... ) devraient être définies.

• Soit pour chaque proposition individuellement et dans ce cas inscrites dans le texte de la proposition.
• Soit pour toutes les propositions d'un fil de discussion et dans ce cas inscrite dans la description du fil de discussion.
• Soit pour toutes les propositions de tout les fils de discussion du sous-groupe et dans ce cas inscrites dans la description du sous-groupe.
• Soit pour toutes les propositions de tout les fils de discussion de tout les sous-groupes et dans ce cas inscrites dans la description du groupe parent.

Te vertalen ...

I would like to make the process a little simpler in order to make it more effective. Why do you always need to start at LVL1 with 3 approvals? Let everyone decide at which level to start by themselves depending on the seriousness! If they put unserious stuff in serious stuff it will be blocked fast and not everything should be for the GA, except LVL3. And then you could call LVL1: free brainstorming, LVL2: Things we can do immediately LVL3: On the agenda of next GA. Maybe I can do a proposal in 10h.