Loomio

How to use and improve the use of Loomio?

PI
Patrick Installé Public Seen by 398

Discovering a tool takes time and practice to understand «the services it can provide».

Discovering the «howto use those services to suit our needs» takes also time and practice.

Until now Loomio fails in it's objective to create a satisfactory tool for decision. The practice is long boring blabla about one document. There are no way to improve the original proposition in a session (thread). Maybe there is a reason?

By the way ... Belgian Pirates had never used the public discussion of Mediawiki. I think the tool should be mobilized.

«... Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, ...» - Dory the blue fish :fish:

TF

Thierry Fenasse Fri 9 Sep 2016

wiki.pirateparty.be

I really do agree about WIKI and its DISCUSSION wich are totaly public and with the fact that all the history is kept, comparable and restorable.

And it is not «sexy» BUT it is an amaizing under exploited tool.

loomio

This wrong feeling is probably because «we» started to use it «after» everything was decided for the next GA.

But Loomio probably works and I truely believe that ANY OTHER tool will face the same problem : without experience and discussions about its usage.

It is «sexy» AND it is an amizing under exploited tool.

V

Vincent Sat 10 Sep 2016

Jumping to conclusion after just one week of serious activity is prematurate imho. Can't we collect more data before we claim something has failed?

V

Vincent Sat 10 Sep 2016

@patrickinstalle could you please move this thread into varia? By creating many subgroups we affect the lisibility.

PI

Patrick Installé Sat 10 Sep 2016

Varia is about decision. The aim here is not took a decision.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Fri 16 Sep 2016

Loomio fails? I don't think so....

V

Vincent Fri 16 Sep 2016

Neither do I.

PS

Pat Seynaeve Wed 21 Sep 2016

It seems to be a good tool, but still confused about the proposal window up right.
Used normally to start a new thread or to finalise and voting a thread?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Thu 22 Sep 2016

Loomio is just about making decisions.... if we gone us loomio also for other things it will be saturated very fast. If everyone is gone start groups .... in a very short time a mother will not find his child anymore...

We have facebook(s),Wiki's, Website.... pads... Slack ..... next to meetings, labs etc....

Getting organised...? I think i am gone join the maffia ;-)

TF

Thierry Fenasse started a proposal Sat 5 Nov 2016

Replace the title with : Who to use and improve the use of Loomio Closed Sun 20 Nov 2016

Outcome
by Thierry Fenasse Tue 25 Apr 2017

Tadaaam ... the thread and the description have been modified.

Because «Why Loomio fails and how to improve.» as the first thread of of Non decision topics sounds not encouraging. :sweat_smile:

Results
Agree - 3
Abstain - 3
Disagree - 3
Block - 3
3 people have voted (6%)
JVO

Jan Van Opstal
Agree
Sat 5 Nov 2016

take a melody and make it better ....love that :-)

V

Vincent
Abstain
Sat 5 Nov 2016

I agree with the idea but I don't understand the title. Who to use?

V

Vincent
Agree
Sat 5 Nov 2016

I agree with "How to use and improve the use of Loomio"

PS

Pat Seynaeve
Agree
Sat 5 Nov 2016

PS

Pat Seynaeve
Agree
Sat 5 Nov 2016

Simplified it!

PS

Pat Seynaeve
Agree
Sat 5 Nov 2016

Simplify it!

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sat 5 Nov 2016

@vincent15 Ooops : typo issue : How (not Who) ... Sorry :rabbit:

V

Vincent Fri 18 Nov 2016

We could also create a topic "Why Facebook fails and how to improve"

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sat 19 Nov 2016

Je sais ... j'ai pas attendu la fin de la proposition ... mais que voulez-vous ... celui qui a les droits est confronté à la tentation d'en user plus que ceux qui ne les ont pas. (Proverbe Geek) :nerd:

TF

Thierry Fenasse started a proposal Sun 20 Nov 2016

Move the 2 threads from Varia group to here and delete Varia Closed Wed 23 Nov 2016

Outcome
by Thierry Fenasse Tue 25 Apr 2017

we want it simpler, but we do not want to merge, move, clean up the threads and groups of Varia and Non Decision blabla ... so what do we do ? :dromedary_camel:

A se pisser dessus tellement c'est débile :frog:

Group Varia, 2 threads, 7 members, Public... Redondancy with Here (Non Decision Topics).

Results
Agree - 2
Abstain - 2
Disagree - 2
Block - 2
7 people have voted (14%)
V

Vincent
Agree
Mon 21 Nov 2016

Why not.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout
Disagree
Mon 21 Nov 2016

There needs to be a space where people can post whatever they want, even non-pirate stuff, without the protocols etc. Unless you want to keep people on the Facebook group...

TF

Thierry Fenasse
Agree
Mon 21 Nov 2016

Because Loomio is a nice tool, wrongly used and we need to clarify / simplify its usage. :building_construction:

PS

Pat Seynaeve
Abstain
Tue 22 Nov 2016

I don't find Loomio a good tool, cause the protocol is creating too much bla-bla-bla about form and other details. It is rare that a proposal finish in the debatzone, and when it arrived there, everyone is already tired to discuss.
No multiplechoise

H

HgO
Abstain
Tue 22 Nov 2016

I find it very amusing that the place supposed to be a non-decision area has become the only group where we are still voting :sweat_smile:

J

Josse
Disagree
Tue 22 Nov 2016

It should disappear completely. Use LVL1 instead and remove the step by step process from LVL1 -> LVL3

Z

ZeFredz
Abstain
Wed 23 Nov 2016

Same reason as HgO, isn't this a "Non Decision Topic" ;)

PS

Pat Seynaeve Mon 21 Nov 2016

So, when you look now to this thread: this is why it don't work. I tooks 16 days to have 3 agree's to simply correct a typo issue. The only discussion was to move this thread to another location.
And that is typical "pirates": instead to discuss about the facts and content and searching solutions, we discuss about structure and other details.
The protocol is too slow and focus about the form instead of the content.
I suppose when someone post a item that he want to improve, he already has thought about it and have a idea for a solution.
So it come in the brainstorming zone, where everybody can react: some discuss about content, form and give their ideas: everybody act like we are in debat zone, and that is normal: when somebody post a item, brains start working to help find a good solution, when you stop this proces by saying: "hey, you have to wait before thinking, first we have to decide if it's good formulated and only if you find 3 other ones you can open your mouth. So you'll wait till everybody has his word about the form and if he will endorse or not.
Then you'll have to wait to discuss till everybody has his say about again the form?
Then we come in the debating zone: in the mean time everybody has lost his interest, or they have said their vision in the level before, and you can't always repeat what you've said. It slow down the discussion and decision proces and makes that this tool is not popular.
My proposition:
We need a forum-like discussion platform, where we can decide a communal view, a action, a strategie, an idea, (and not only to prepare a GA).
The protocol slows down the creative thinking proces and is the cause that many thoughts and ideas (proposals?) are lost in the slow down proces of the protocol.
Maybe it's better that everyone can start a proposal in the proposal zone. Last active items comes above the list, so this is a first automatic filter. When it has to be reformulated, then reformulated it, the one with the most likes will win if there's no consensus. Keep it simple, please. So the drafting zone is unnecessary.
1) Post in the proposal Zone (brainstorming)
Formalise, develop, clarify, translate here. When 3 people think that the idea is consistent and clear enough to be debated, then the idea moves to the debating zone
2) Defend your idea in the Debating Zone
The goal here is to find a workable consensus about everybody's vision. Ideas debated here can be presented to the General Assembly, sorted by popularity, but can serve other goals too, like the different vision's of a UBI, How preparing next elections, organise a multimedia-team, …
3) Following up the idea in the Executing zone or sort it in GA, ToDo, Opinions, Labs&Squads
The accepted ideas can been followed up here, indicate the responsibles, give comments and remarks, posts and discuss difficulties, or just keep in contact and give transparency with other members who are interest in the project, …

TF

Thierry Fenasse Mon 21 Nov 2016

For what you propose we need a «next gen» forum like Discourse or NodeBB or anyhing that can raise user rights automatically according to their usage, some gamification and a nice look and feel.

We do not have that kind of tools and that is «a tension». :dromedary_camel:

TF

Thierry Fenasse Mon 21 Nov 2016

@vanecx and @pattico and everyone else ...
The place you talk about is this one : Permanent Assembly

About varia and non decision

There is a non decision sub-group and a varia sub-group wich have, both of them, according to my understanding, the same purpose as Permanent Assembly, the parent group.

Because Loomio is a «propose / decide» oriented tool, it's irrelevant to have a «non decision» group or sub-group because if there is no PROPOSAL (votes), there is NOTHING to decide. That means that EVERY THREAD is a non decision discussion until someone starts a proposal.

About LVL1,2,3

The LVL1: Brainstorming, LVL2: Drafting Zone and LVL3: Debating Zone are sub-groups of the «open-bar» Permanent Assembly. Those 3 LEVELS sub-group are General Assembly oriented... in the idea of avoiding debates during a GA.

About any othes groups or sub groups

non exhaustive list
* UBI Squad
* Website Squad
* Pirates de Liège and all its sub groups
* Équipage BW & sympatisants and all its sub groups
* etc

Those are crew, squad or topic oriented.

So why my proposal?

Because Permanent Assembly offers exactly the same as non decision and varia, I had the idea to merge one to he other and maybe remove both of them to keep just Permanent Assembly

And what else ?

Modify the description of the Permanent Assembly to have a better presentation of Loomio and the way it's *«organized».

So if you can change your minds and agree, that would be nice!
I do not take it personally if you don't. :heart:

TF

Thierry Fenasse Mon 21 Nov 2016

For a usage of Loomio

Loomio is not a forum or a chat room but a tool that can help with decision-making when there are tensions.

  • If you have nothing to decide or if the job you are trying to accomplish is not «likely to bring a tension» do not create a thread.

  • If you consider that the work you are trying to accomplish might bring tensions, then Loomio may be of use to you.

Post a new thread ?

Regardless of the group or subgroup, each discussion can be moved if necessary.

Use the subject and description (which can be modified by the person creating the thread or by a moderator) to describe as accurately as possible your project, goal, or whatever you are trying to achieve. Do not hesitate to put links to useful information and other collaborative tools such as a pad, a wiki page, a irc channel, a shared document, or other useful resources to achieve your goal(s).

No tension?

If there is no tension in your project, this subject and description will simply serve as a «presentation page» of your goals and links to other tools or resources.

The thread still available for possible exchanges of comments, or questions / answers WITHOUT the slightest proposal awaiting a vote.

Tensions?

If your project encounters one or more tensions, they can only be solved one by one, which is why a thread of discussion only offers one proposal at a time. Feel free to keep a list of tensions either in the comments, in the description, or elsewhere.

If you can not overcome a tension, you will have to build a proposal that will have to be voted on. The thread always provides room for exchanging comments or questions / answers while a proposal is in progress.

An initiated proposal can not be modified (except for its deadline), if it is not appropriate, it must be rejected and replaced by a new and better adapted proposal. During the vote, each user has the right to a small comment (250 characters) to accompany his position with a small remark or appreciation. And as a reminder, it is better to build a proposal BEFORE putting it to the vote.

The terms of the vote (consensus, majority, forbearance, duration of voting, etc.) should be defined.

  • Either for each proposal individually and in this case included in the text of the proposal.
  • Either for all the propositions of a thread of discussion and in this case inscribed in the description of the thread.
  • Let for all the propositions of all the threads of discussion of the subgroup and in this case inscribed in the description of the subgroup.
  • Let for all the propositions of all the threads of discussion of all the subgroups and in this case inscribed in the description of the parent group.

Pour une utilisation de Loomio

Loomio n'est pas un forum ni un salon mais un outil qui peut aider à la prise de décision lorsqu'il y a des tensions.

  • Si vous n'avez rien à décider ou si le travail que vous chercher à accomplir ne «risque pas d'amener une tension» ne créez pas de fil de discussion.
  • Si vous envisagez que le travail que vous cherchez à accomplir pourrait amener des tensions, alors Loomio peut vous être utile.

Démarrer une discussion?

Peu importe le groupe ou le sous groupe puisque chaque fil de discussions peut être déplacé si nécessaire.

Utilisez le sujet et la description (qui peuvent être modifiés par la personne qui crée le fil ou par un modérateur) pour décrire le plus précisément possible votre projet, objectif, ou quoi que ce soit que vous cherchez à atteindre. N'hésitez pas à mettre des liens vers des informations utiles et vers d'autres outils de collaboration comme un pad, une page d'un wiki, un cannal irc, un document partagé, ou tout autres ressources utiles à votre ou vos objectifs.

Aucune tension ?

Dés lors, si aucune tension n'apparaît lors de la réalisation de votre projet, ce sujet et cette description serviront simplement de «page de présentation» de vos objectifs et de liens vers d'autres outils ou ressources.

Le fil de discussions laissera la place pour d'éventuels échanges de commentaires, ou de questions/réponses SANS la moindre proposition attendant un vote.

Tensions?

Si votre projet rencontre une ou plusieurs tensions, elles ne peuvent être résolues qu'une par une et c'est pourquoi un fil de discussion n'offre qu'une proposition à la fois. Libre à vous de tenir une liste de tensions soit dans les commentaires, soit dans la description, soit ailleurs.

Si vous ne parvenez pas à bout d'une tension, il vous faudra construire une proposition qui devra alors être votée. Le fil de discussion offrant toujours la place pour échanger des commentaires ou des questions/réponses pendant qu'une proposition est en cours.

Une proposition enclenchée ne peut pas être modifiée (sauf son délais), si elle ne convient pas, elle devra être rejetée et remplacée par une nouvelle proposition mieux adaptée. Lors de son vote, chaque utilisateur à droit à un petit commentaire (250 caractères) pour accompagner sa prise de position d'une petite remarque ou appréciation. Et pour rappel, mieux vaut construire une proposition AVANT de la soumettre au vote.

Les modalités du vote (consensus, majorité, abstention autorisées, durée du vote ... ) devraient être définies.

  • Soit pour chaque proposition individuellement et dans ce cas inscrites dans le texte de la proposition.
  • Soit pour toutes les propositions d'un fil de discussion et dans ce cas inscrite dans la description du fil de discussion.
  • Soit pour toutes les propositions de tout les fils de discussion du sous-groupe et dans ce cas inscrites dans la description du sous-groupe.
  • Soit pour toutes les propositions de tout les fils de discussion de tout les sous-groupes et dans ce cas inscrites dans la description du groupe parent.

Te vertalen ...

J

Josse Tue 22 Nov 2016

I would like to make the process a little simpler in order to make it more effective. Why do you always need to start at LVL1 with 3 approvals? Let everyone decide at which level to start by themselves depending on the seriousness! If they put unserious stuff in serious stuff it will be blocked fast and not everything should be for the GA, except LVL3. And then you could call LVL1: free brainstorming, LVL2: Things we can do immediately LVL3: On the agenda of next GA. Maybe I can do a proposal in 10h.

TF

Thierry Fenasse Tue 22 Nov 2016

@hgo :heart:

@josse That may be the next proposal. One step at a time. And in the same processes, maybe some users will :

a) begin / continue to discover Loomio,
b) reach some agreements on a «common» (and easier way) to use it.

I personally find the 3LVLs too annoying too, even if it was proposed in the idea of the 3 pirates rule and the filtering of the interest and motivations... and once again : to prepare votes for a General Assembly. Not for daily work, project, tasks ...

That's why I use this thread here and the proposal(s) process to move, clean, merge an simplify the current usage of Loomio, hoping that together we will do it and build something that suits our needs, if a decision helping tool is needed to solve tensions when they seem unsolvable without a vote.

:whale:

Z

ZeFredz Wed 23 Nov 2016

If I understand well what I've read online, Loomio has been made by the Loomio team and Enspiral to help implement sociocracy/holacracy and to reach fast consensus-based decisions in organisations. This is the reason why it only have yes/no/block/abstain type of proposal and no poll or other things like that.

More details

__ I think we should try to use it in that way. It's also made for teams and organisations using agile-like methodologies. __

As for the 3LVLs protocol used by the Pirates, IMHO it's too complicated. Another issue is that since the decision itself is made outside of Loomio, many people will not participate in the discussion and to the construction of the proposals. This could leave many unsolved issues and unanswered questions at the time of the vote.

__ Making every Pirate participate to the debate will be difficult, reaching decision by consensus can be tough and can take time, but I think this is the way a real democracy have to work besause it's fair, inclusive and the decision are more legitimate. Making decision by a majority vote (even if the majority is pretty high) will create loosers and loosers are people that will left the organisation. __

TF

Thierry Fenasse Wed 23 Nov 2016

Some holacracy / governance translation (to french, dutch in waiting) from one of the link you provided have began on our wiki.

TF

Thierry Fenasse Wed 23 Nov 2016

EN : So ... because we are on a non-decision thread, here is a pad with an interpretation of our comments, remarks, etc :sweat_smile: .

FR : Donc ... puisque nous sommes dans un fil de discussion non-decision, voici un pad avec une interpretation de nos commentaires, remarques, etc :sweat_smile: .

NL : Excuseert maar ik ben niet een goed nederlands talig mensen dus ... de vertaal is niet beschikbaar. Maar je ben meer dan welkom om de pad te vertalen. :sweat_smile: .

:heart:

TF

Thierry Fenasse Fri 25 Nov 2016

FR : @patrickinstalle puisque tu es le modérateur de ce groupe, est-ce que tu veux bien déplacer ce fil de discussion vers le groupe parent Permanent Assembly? Et tant que tu y es, supprimer ce sous-groupe Non-Decision topics qui ne contient qu'un fil de discussion et qui est redondant avec Permanent Assembly. Merci

EN : @patrickinstalle since you are the moderator of this group, would you move this thread to the parent group Permanent Assembly? And in the same time, can you delete this Non-Decision topics subgroup topics that contains only one thread and which is redundant with Permanent Assembly. Thanks

NL : sorry ik geen Nederlands spreken :crying_cat_face: