Loomio
Thu 27 Jun 2013

Multi Proposal at the same time.

CT
Chris Taklis Public Seen by 555

It might be better if it's activated to have more than 1 purposal at the same time.

The reason is: you might have 2 nice purposals but you must decide which both of the 2 you like most, and that can happen only if you can have more than 1 purposal live on the same time.

What is your opinion?

ST

Stacco Troncoso Thu 27 Jun 2013

I think it'd be great. In my group we've had to resort to voting amongst various proposals on etherpads to then arrive at at final one so we can ratify it in Loomio... while having the discussion at Loomio.

I'm sure this must have been brought up before but, as I envision it, you'd have several different proposals following the same "Yes/no" current model and, then, at the top, a general pie chart displaying the relative results of each.

JL

Jon Lemmon Thu 27 Jun 2013

Yes, this is definitely an issue we need to address. It's just going to require a lot of design and user-testing to get right. Up till now, we've had bigger development priorities to tackle, however, I think within the next month or two we'll be ready to have a proper look at this feature. Which, by the way, I'm super excited about!!

MT

Miles Thompson Fri 28 Jun 2013

yup - when you get time to address this I think it would be awesome..

MS

Megan Salole Fri 28 Jun 2013

Yes, it will be important to test it live. In theory I like it!

DU

[deactivated account] Fri 9 Aug 2013

I think this is defiantly worth more exploration… Setting up multiple proposals was the first thing I tried to do while testing out loomio.

I was curious to see how loomio might be used for solving creative challenges. And in order to solve creative challenges you typically need a wide rage of different suggestions. Maybe this isn't the decision making process than loomio wants to support but as a creative allowing multiple concepts to develop seems completely natural to me.

If your curious here's some research looking at Parallel Design vs. Iterative Design
http://www.nngroup.com/articles/parallel-design/

JL

Jon Lemmon Sun 18 Aug 2013

@michaeldenton agreed. Proposing multiple concepts and iterating on them simultaneously is quite natural and Loomio needs to eventually support this.

It will happen soon. :) We are going to be thinking about these different types of decisions as we redesign the discussion page this month.

BB

Barry Baker Tue 20 Aug 2013

Hi there - totally agree - my hobby group provided the same initial feedback or actually being able to have multi-choice preferences within the proposal, not just a yes, no, maybe - heck no!

BB

Barry Baker started a proposal Tue 20 Aug 2013

Do people think that having multiple choice answers options for Proposals would be useful Closed Fri 30 Aug 2013

Outcome
by Barry Baker Mon 27 Feb 2017

Looks like strong desire to have more functionality in flexibility of proposal or a tool leading to a proposal

I would love the functionality to choose and personalise a multi-choice answer for Proposals - i.e. what game world would our gaming group go to next

a) Modern

b) Fantasy

c) etc etc

Cheers

Results
Agree - 14
Abstain - 14
Disagree - 14
Block - 14
23 people have voted (2%)
BB

Barry Baker
Agree
Tue 20 Aug 2013

I would like this functionality please

DT

daniel tygel
Agree
Tue 20 Aug 2013

We are studying testing loomio for defining priorities, so multiple choice would be great: users could vote in an existing proposal, or propose new options.
Maybe options could also be merged (and the merges would be voted....)

CT

Chris Taklis
Agree
Tue 20 Aug 2013

Of course i would like this function for proposals.

CA

carlo.rosito@gmail.com
Agree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Definetly. Choices in a proposal are always more complex then a single answer.

PR

Parley Reynolds
Abstain
Wed 21 Aug 2013

I am new to loomio but from what I have read from the discussion thread it sounds like a good idea

JT

Jack Tolley
Agree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Always keen to help decide what game world is next!

ST

Stacco Troncoso
Agree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

JV

Joshua Vial
Disagree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

I agree with the intent of this but think digging deeper than a multi-option proposal would reveal a better outcome. In particular I think 'multi-proposal' and 'propose alternative' would help groups fluidly move to the best outcome.

RJ

Raphaël Jadot
Abstain
Wed 21 Aug 2013

I prefer the proposal of several decisions at the same time

CN

Carlos Neves
Agree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

I agree with the proposal and also with the comments suggesting of an alternative proposal. Both of these options can currently be done on the discussion panel, but maybe it would be easier to have them explicitly in the proposal window.

LO

Laura Oelke
Agree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Absolutely.

NG

Nádori Gergely
Disagree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

DS

Danyl Strype
Disagree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Like Joshua, I agree there needs to be a tool for straw polling, and ways of working with multiple proposals on the same issue, but I love Loomio because it facilitates consensus. There's plenty of code out there already for majority voting engines.

MR

Meg Rose
Disagree
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Agree with Joshua's comment - go broader

AG

Anna Guenther
Abstain
Wed 21 Aug 2013

Agree with intent, but would like to see what came out of the design day yesterday!

MB

Matthew Bartlett
Abstain
Thu 22 Aug 2013

I think we could achieve the same result (and a few others) with 'Ideas'

MPR

Miguel Prados Rodriguez
Agree
Fri 23 Aug 2013

We switched from loomio to limesurvey for some multiproposals voting, so it will be great to have everything in loomio.

BK

Benjamin Knight
Agree
Tue 27 Aug 2013

I think a super simple in-discussion polling feature could potentially be really helpful, even once the 'ideas' feature is implemented. But I think 'ideas' will be a huuuge step forward!

RBW

Rachel B. Wickert
Agree
Thu 29 Aug 2013

I agree with the proposal and join Carlos Neves in his comment.

UH

Uma Holla
Abstain
Thu 29 Aug 2013

MK

MJ Kaplan
Abstain
Thu 29 Aug 2013

RG

Rob Guthrie
Agree
Thu 29 Aug 2013

I personally believe we should be supporting many poll types and this is one of the next ones I want to implement.
They're all just tools for gaining an understanding.

VM

vivien maidaborn
Agree
Fri 30 Aug 2013

I am excited about this and and approach, where it is as well as the decision making tool instead of...

RJ

Raphaël Jadot
Agree
Fri 30 Aug 2013

I'm convinced by some arguments given in favour of simple polls :)

CT

Chris Taklis Tue 20 Aug 2013

Our group we will need as soon as possible not only simple purposal, but multi purposal at the same time or instead of yes, no, abstain and block, to choose our purposals there.

RDB

Richard D. Bartlett Wed 21 Aug 2013

Definitely agree that we need a way of considering multiple options at once. I would like to take a step back from the existing proposal feature before deciding what is the best solution though.

The existing proposal mechanism is pretty good for focussing a group's attention very tightly, for building consensus, and making binding decisions.

Comparing multiple options, gathering suggestions, and canvassing opinions feels to me like quite a distinct task from a proposal.

BB

Barry Baker Wed 21 Aug 2013

Agree @richarddbartlett - just about a precursor to a proposal in its current form.

And i would envisage it as another option, not a necessity to get o a proposal

I think it is necessary step though as my initial feel is the proposal system is good at focus and decision making but not is also narrow (different sides of same coin).

Please accept my feedback as a desire to improve a good concept into what i would use it for rather than a criticism.

Thank you.

VM

vivien maidaborn Wed 21 Aug 2013

I like the idea of multiple choices being a tool to use to create focus toward deeper discussion rather than replacing the decision itself. That seems constructive for sure! The Loomio team is working on the roadmap for next features now so we will look forward to sharing that and getting your input on priorities between this and the myriad other features people want as well over the next couple of weeks or so.

JV

Joshua Vial Wed 21 Aug 2013

I think something like a yammer poll that is visually distinct from a decision would meet this need nicely - it still shows up on the right hand side but it's presented as learning and gaining insight from the group rather than making a binding decision.

RJ

Raphaël Jadot Wed 21 Aug 2013

Hello, I'm new to this group, but using Loomio since few months now :) I'm totally in favour in multi-purposal, but i'm not sure a "vote" is the best thing to bring to loomio.

DS

Danyl Strype Wed 21 Aug 2013

Does anybody else find themselves thinking around in circles on this stuff? Nonetheless, I can see a few possible solutions here.

  • The simplest is for people to simply post their counter-proposals as comments, and see how many people 'like' them (as a modification of that approach, the full range of positions we can currently take on a proposal could be offered for each comment).

  • One would be to simply allow editing of proposals while they are live, obliging people to actively follow discussion on which they take a position, or risk having said "yes" to one thing which then becomes something totally different. The proposal could be auto-extended (eg by 3 days) every time it is edited, to give people time to check if their position still holds.

  • The need for multiple proposals tends to come out of longs discussion threads. What about adding a draft proposal feature, where a proposal can be entered normally, but edited on the fly by any user, with a version history. Positions are reset every time the text is edited. A draft could be locked (by who?), making it into a Current Decision (used as normal). This could be used either to craft a proposal before going for formal consensus, or in tandem with a Current Decision, as a way of trying out amendments.

  • This would be a lot of work, but combining editable proposals with integrated realtime chat (using a standard like XMPP or IRC), could allow us to have 'decision sprints', where we hash it out in a chat room, edit the proposal, check people's positions, "have we got consensus? No?" iterate until golden brown. A realtime chat feature would also provide an alternative to situations I've been in when two users end up logged in at the same time, flooding Loomio discussions with ping-pong comments.

BB

Barry Baker Wed 21 Aug 2013

Reading through the discussion threads, and using them to expand my thinking;

1) I would still prefer an ability to have an ability to post a multiple choice question that can be voted on and could be recorded as a decision like the current proposal history but

2) perhaps it is called Pathway or precursor and shown separately from proposals so the option can simply be used as a poll (full stop) or as a stepping stone tool to help focus and form a path to a good proposal point

3) the discussion tree is an option but a separate precursor function allows visibility and recording of that step

Cheers

MB

Matthew Bartlett Wed 21 Aug 2013

During yesterday's big workshop some of the Loomio team spent a while working on a feature to do approximately what the proposal is suggesting. I'm working on turning paper mockups into something gloriously digital. Will share when I'm done.

MR

Meg Rose Wed 21 Aug 2013

Meg Rose should also have said excellent proposal - I like the thinking underway.

MB

Matthew Bartlett Thu 22 Aug 2013

Here's my mockup of that feature: https://www.loomio.org/discussions/6413 I aim to do some work making it easier to understand what's going on with the screenshots, but they might still be interesting in their current state.

BB

Barry Baker Thu 22 Aug 2013

@matthewbartlett - hi there - am i thick or does that link below point to a thread about editing comments not multiple answer proposals?

Cheers

MB

Matthew Bartlett Thu 22 Aug 2013

@barrybaker I'm sure you're not thick, but the screenshots are just using 'editing comments' as an example discussion. I've added a bunch of captions there now which I hope will make things clearer.

CS

Carl Scrase Sat 24 Aug 2013

Our group at Commongorund Co-op was just saying this is a feature we need.

@benjaminknightloo, @richarddbartlett, @vivienmaidabornloo

OS

Oli SB Tue 7 Mar 2017

It looks like the decision was that "multi proposals" were a good idea - 4 years ago. Did this ever get implemented? What is the current status / where can I find out more?
Thanks
Oli

NL

Natalia Lombardo Wed 8 Mar 2017

there's some changes coming very soon to the proposal functionality. Including multiple proposals open at the same time and different stiles of proposals! :)

OS

Oli SB Thu 9 Mar 2017

Coooool thanks @natilombardo
When you say "soon" is it possible to give any dates?
And can you tell me where is the best place to subscribe to be made aware of these changes when they arrive?
Best
Oli

GC

Greg Cassel Thu 9 Mar 2017

I think it's fine to give users tools & let them decide how to use them. However, I also think that it's generally unwise for groups to attach more than one proposal at a time to the same topic-- mainly because of the sequential stream of comments per topic.

So, I'm kind of wondering whether the Loomio team is planning to retain "one proposal at a time" as a default, or maybe even a recommendation? Or, has the Loomio team thinking on this subject changed considerably in recent times? (Historically, I believe that many people were aligned with the "one proposal at a time" concept.)

RG

Rob Guthrie Thu 9 Mar 2017

We're going with the principal that It's up to the facilitator to decide how to use the tool. If though experience we find that there should be some limits, we'll look at how to implement them.

RG

Rob Guthrie Thu 9 Mar 2017

It's in beta testing and we can turn it on for specific groups.. send me your group id (rob@loomio.org) and we can enable it for you.

GC

Greg Cassel Fri 10 Mar 2017

Thanks for the explanation Rob. Well, many tools including Loomio provide users' manuals. If Loomio receives a deeply new feature such as multiple proposals per topic, I think it'd be super helpful to offer related guide material(s), perhaps at https://help.loomio.org/en/proposals.html .

And of course, per my prior comment, I'd personally recommend a typical guideline of one live proposal per Loomio topic.

If anyone effectively uses a decision-making workflow with multiple proposals per topic, I'd love to hear about it. It could be highly relevant to some of my papers such as Agreement-Based Organization.

PLG

Purple Library Guy Fri 10 Mar 2017

There's a tension between two goals in the question of whether to use multiple proposals per topic. On one hand, keeping to one works well with the ethos of consensus and orients towards refining a given idea to be the best version of that idea it can be.
On the other, using multiple allows for the exploration of different approaches. Sometimes the first idea someone comes up with is workable enough that if the alternative is "DON'T do that" (ie, implicitly, do nothing), then it is clearly worth doing--and yet, at the same time it is far from an optimum solution and if other ideas could be considered alongside it something better might be found. The dark side of an orientation towards consensus can be an orientation towards groupthink . . .

GC

Greg Cassel Fri 10 Mar 2017

Exploring different approaches is vitally important. I personally recommend that ideas are explored thoroughly prior to formal proposals or instead of formal proposals. I'm glad that Loomio is currently expanding users' options for co-creative approaches via new polling types.

Whether or not a formal proposal is intended to create democracy or groupthink is IMO a deep cultural issue for each network or community.