Loomio
Fri 20 Mar 2015

Replace tagging mailling list with Loomio?

KK
Kotya Karapetyan Public Seen by 406

I challenge you to prove that the tagging mailing list or the OSM forum have significant advantages over this tool in proposal discussions and initial voting.
No, you need to establish Loomeo is better than List or Forum. (OK, anyone can edit thread introduction ? DB)

JVB

Jan van Bekkum Fri 20 Mar 2015

What about pricing? Will Loomio be free of charge for OSM?

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Fri 20 Mar 2015

Looks like it will be free. According to their help:

Money will never be a barrier for people using Loomio to do great stuff in their communities. If your group doesn't have the budget to pay for software, you don't need to pay a subscription. However, we may occasionally ask your group members for a donation.

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Fri 20 Mar 2015

I do see one trouble here, in comparison to other tools (mailing list, forum, StackExchange): I don't think it is possible to comment on an answer. I can link to it (e.g. this is a link to the comment by Jan). I can also mention a specific person (like @janvanbekkum). But I cannot build a tree structure. Mailing list gives too much freedom. SE limits it to just 2 levels (question and answers and the coments). Here there seems to be just one level—question and "discussion").

KK

Kotya Karapetyan started a proposal Fri 20 Mar 2015

I propose to spend a couple of weeks pre-evaluating Loomio Closed Thu 21 Mar 2019

This is a test proposal, to evaluate Loomio's functionality and UX. Please comment and otherwise try to abuse the tool so that we see how it goes.

Results
Agree - 4
Abstain - 4
Disagree - 4
Block - 4
7 people have voted (43%)
KK

Kotya Karapetyan
Agree
Fri 20 Mar 2015

Loomio seems to be well-implemented dedicated tool for discussions. I think it makes a sense to at least take a closer look at it.

DB

David Bannon Fri 20 Mar 2015

Hmm, I think its very decision based, not a lot of scope for the wandering treads we are used to. Probably means members need to show some discipline with either keeping to the topic or starting a new one. At present, we do not work like that !

DB

David Bannon
Disagree
Fri 20 Mar 2015

Disagreeing to make the pie look more interesting !
1. If you 'take a position' you get a new page and cannot copy text from previous contributions.
2. Cannot respond to particular contributions, thats sad.

DB

David Bannon Fri 20 Mar 2015

and each post limited to 250 character ! Maybe a good thing in that it makes us express concisely but some matters will need more !
(Edited a message previously posted.) No, see post below.

DB

David Bannon Fri 20 Mar 2015

dbannon@davos-LT:~$ cat | wc -c
I do see one trouble here....
487

Hmm, Kotya's post had 487 character. Looks like the 250 limit applies only while taking a position. That makes sense, unlimited while arguing a point but you need to summarise when taking a position.
Like that.

M3C

moltonel 3x Combo Fri 20 Mar 2015

Beyond wondering about being free of charge for OSM, I feel very uneasy about using an external service that cannot be intalled on OSM servers, cannot get the data out, etc.

M3C

moltonel 3x Combo Fri 20 Mar 2015

Also : no threading ? :( Tssss Kids these days...

DB

David Bannon Fri 20 Mar 2015

moltonel, thats true. But maybe just something we need get over ? Outsourcing such services is pretty common now.
Of more concern IMHO is the life span of Loomio ? If it dies, or introduces fees next month, what do we do ?
Officially, its still in Beta.

J

jgpacker Sat 21 Mar 2015

moltonel, as far as I can see, loomio is open-source, so it can be hosted in OSM servers if people like it. I believe we could even ditch all these log-in options and implement an option to login with an OSM account. (though we would need to take a deeper look to comment about details)

J

jgpacker Sat 21 Mar 2015

I also dislike the lack of tree structure in the comments, but appreciate the "like" button, since theorically there are always dozens (or hundreds?) of users that never comment anyway, but would probably hit a "like" button.

JVB

Jan van Bekkum Sat 21 Mar 2015

One benefit of the mailing list (and most forums) is that entries are more WYSIWYG. Loomio has yet another editing standard to create bullet points, numbered lists etc. The same holds for the wiki by the way.

JVB

Jan van Bekkum
Agree
Sat 21 Mar 2015

At least doing a test is worth the effort. It looks at least more readable than the mailing list.

JVB

Jan van Bekkum
Agree
Sat 21 Mar 2015

At least doing a test is worth the effort. It looks more readable than the mailing list.

JVB

Jan van Bekkum Sat 21 Mar 2015

Interesting, if I change my position or its comment both the old and the new one remain visible.

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Sat 21 Mar 2015

The web-version is very usable on an Android smartphone. Actually more usable than StackExchange IMO.

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Sat 21 Mar 2015

@davidbannon: I needed people to comment, and that's easier to do if you are looking for problems :)

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Sat 21 Mar 2015

I think one of the big problems is the lack of reputation (as in StackExchange) here. It is a good tool in decision making. Do you agree?

DB

David Bannon Sun 22 Mar 2015

Reputation might be easy to measure on SE where specific questions are asked and the asker (and others) get to rate the answer. Usually the answer solves a problem and its easy to test.
But with OSM tagging, you need to evaluate someone's knowledge of tagging and probably another field altogether. eg, some recent questions about Historic; I can tell answers were good from a tagging point of view but was the history correct, I'd have no idea.
Another example, I probably drive on unsealed roads more than most members of the list. I think they are are important and should be (eg) rendered on the slippery map. Other disagree. They think I'm a pain in the place where you sit.
So, my answer, reputation would be too subjective for what we do here.
David

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Sun 22 Mar 2015

@davidbannon: In each case your reputation will change depending on how the community considers your contribution. I am pretty sure that even without any knowledge on your specific topic, I can upvote an answer based on its quality: references, logic, style and language. And downvote an answer that is pure noise.

DB

David Bannon Sun 22 Mar 2015

Replying via email as a test.

Kotya, my point is much of what we say is opinions, arguments rather
than verifiable facts. So, ratings will be more about who agrees with
you rather than who knows their stuff.

David

DS

Dan S
Agree
Sun 22 Mar 2015

yeah why not? no commitment implied, it'd at least help us think through what kind of collaboration support we need

DS

Dan S Sun 22 Mar 2015

I agree with David that reputation is a risky concept when it comes to opinions rather than facts. I guess I already expresed that by pressing the "Like" button on his comment...

DB

David Bannon Sun 22 Mar 2015

Oh, I had not noticed that "like" link. Thought it was a serious omission. Interesting ....

Clicking the eg "25 minutes ago" link seems to just trigger another reply.

David

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Mon 23 Mar 2015

@davidbannon : The time link is actually a link to the post: try this (comment by jgpacker)

MR

Martin Raifer
Agree
Thu 2 Apr 2015

MR

Martin Raifer
Abstain
Thu 2 Apr 2015

CG

Cyrille Giquello Sat 11 Apr 2015

I think the tool should be nice if:
- user account is OSM account
- the tool is hosted on OSM infrastructure
- comments are threaded

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Sun 12 Apr 2015

@cyrille37:
- I am pretty certain we could have made it accept OSM credentials.
- Hosting on OSM infrastructure is more a question of providing resources rather than the tool functionality itself.
- What do you mean by "comment threading"? They are as you see them here. If you mean something like building a tree, this tool is probably not what you want.

DB

David Bannon Sun 12 Apr 2015

I think the tool should be nice if: -
user account is OSM account
Agree, i've stopped playing as i'm away and cannot look up pw.

  • the tool is hosted on OSM infrastructure
    Useful but not essential. But we'd need to know we could host it if necessary.

  • comments are threaded
    Well, at one level they are. But no sub threads. Our discussions wander around, maybe a clear distinction on an new topic would be good ?

David
.

P“J

Paul “Baloo” Johnson Sun 24 May 2015

The mailing lists aren't going anywhere; they don't require any special knowledge, credentials or tools to use.

J

jgpacker Sun 24 May 2015

@paulbaloojohnson Loomio's interface is not very different from modern forums and social networks, so I don't think special knowledge would be a big issue. I disagree with mailing lists not requiring any special knowledge.

Also, does Loomio needs a tool to use it?

I don't think credentials would be a big issue. We can add OSM's OAuth (which means you could log here like you do in Level0 and iD) if we create a Loomio instance in our servers. Even a simple email needs credentials so you can send it, and a mailing lists's subscription and configuration are a bit cumbersome.

P“J

Paul “Baloo” Johnson Mon 25 May 2015

Yeah, tried both, email still wins. Loomio is a nonstarter if what we already have works intuitively and experienced users take 15 minutes to figure out how to send a message on Loomio. By any reasonable, non-fanboy standard, that makes Loomio suck.

J

jgpacker Mon 25 May 2015

I can see we have very different opinions. While I'm not claiming we will be able to replace a mailing list with Loomio, I do think the interface is much more intuitive than a mailing list, and I do think this is the case to anyone that is not already comfortable with a mailing list.

KK

Kotya Karapetyan Tue 26 May 2015

I don't think there can be a fare objective comparison between user friendliness of Loomio and the email. First, each of us has years of experience in using email. Even if it was extremely user unfriendly, we had time to get used to it, the same way people got used to Microsoft products, including modern computers. Second, email is only a protocol, allowing a lot of freedom in what each of us actually calls an "email" (Thunderbird vs. Outlook vs. Gmail). Loomio is very limiting. And the question is whether if offers drastic advantages. Similar to how StackExchange is better than email in almost every single aspect if you want to get an answer to a question. So far Loomio disappoints me.

DB

David Bannon Tue 26 May 2015

And I agree Kotya, if we were staring a fresh, all with no skills in
either model, it would be a fair comparison. But everyone on this list
does already manage OK with a mailing list. Loomio is something new and
unless it offers a real advantage, why change ?

What is its "killer feature" ?

David

C

Christoph
Disagree
Sat 12 Mar 2016

C

Christoph
Abstain
Sat 12 Mar 2016

CG

Cyrille Giquello
Agree
Tue 10 May 2016

I agree, should be efficient if debats are done in another place and loomio reserved for clear and final argumentation (and vote).