Loomio
Thu 5 Apr 2018

Did you ask for your Manna basic income ?

CP
Christophe Parot Public Seen by 361

Manna is distributing an unconditional basic income to everybody asking for it. You only have to register at
https://www.mannabase.com/?ref=b24167de4e
with my referral code :)
Then you can go on working on your preferred open source app, you know you will be pay each month. Manna is already distributing a basic income to more than 30,000 people in the world. Your online wallet will allow you to send or receive Manna from other participants.

DS

Danyl Strype Fri 20 Apr 2018

Has anyone checked this out? Who gives away free money? From a quick web search, it seems to be a blockchain thing, so ...

Maybe it's meant to be a bit like Flattr 2.0, where people install a browser plug-in and contribute a monthly amount, and then that money is distributed by Flattr to various creators, on that basis of data collected by that plug-in.

SG

Simon Grant Fri 20 Apr 2018

I confess I had a quick look, then turned away on the principle that as it sounded too good to be true, it probably was. I briefly speculated to myself on how it might work -- e.g. there might be some rich benefactors in there; and your idea @strypey is another one -- but then if the owners of the site don't want to say how it actually works, then presumably it's more likely to be a Ponzi of some sort?

G

Graham Fri 20 Apr 2018

I had a look and walked away. The sign up wanted a lot of personal information without giveing me any idea who would have access to that, how securely it mightbe stored, or what the benefit to me might be, other than receiving some presumably worthless crypto-tokens. It may be well intended, but feels more like a scam.

MB

Michel Bauwens Fri 20 Apr 2018

for one that works, check out duniter/G1, which @Maiadereva is using,

Michel

CP

Christophe Parot Fri 20 Apr 2018

Everything is explain in the faq https://www.mannabase.com/static/documents/mannabase_faq.pdf and the code is on github https://github.com/mannacurrency it is opensource, nothing to do with a scam. The Know your customer (KYC) questions are mandatory to verify that people do not ask twice their basic income. Duniter is another intersting project based on the relative theory of money. It is not a basic income, it is a universal dividend of your contribution to the society.

G

Graham Fri 20 Apr 2018

Hi Christophe. I fear that you might have misunderstood my comment. I didn't say that it was a scam. I said it felt like a scam. Pretty much all blockchain/cryptocurrency software is open source so that really doesn't have any bearing. I simply decided that I didn't want to hand over personal data to some faceless organisation that I knew nothing about. I couldn't find any information about the business model, how the people who run the project are funded, how the organisation was structured, what the governance model was, and it did not engender trust. This is not a criticism of any of the pople involved - I don't know any of them, but the website should be providing this type of information in my opinion, rather than getting me to download PDF files and suchlike. So it's a criticism of the marketing. And then you offer me a referral link, which means that you are in some way incentivised to get me to sign up, which again feels to me like some sort of pyramid selling scam. I see no inherent value in this project - maybe that's just me. Thanks.

CP

Christophe Parot Fri 20 Apr 2018

@graham2 For me Manna is the biggest innovation of these last 10 years. The website gives a link to the whitepaper. This document gives the name of the foundation which is managing the project, a clear description of the business model and the mission of the foundation, name and pictures of people working on the project etc... It does not require any $ or € to claim your basic income or the whitepaper. It is your right to prefer to go on with a debt money issued by a private central bank which has not been elected by anybody. I only want to inform the people here working on opensource tools about this great opensource tool. If everybody would use Manna instead of $ or € , a new era could start. Yes I am using a referral link, because it is a job to inform people about Manna basic income and it seems normal to me to be paid to do this job. More than 11,000 thousands people have already ask for it and I do not want to convince you, I am sure you are intelligent enough to make your own choice, if you have the feeling that Mannabase looks like a scam you will probably not be the only one. I also suggest that people interested by the problem of money follow the Money & society MOOC from the University of Cumbria, prof Jem Bendell. http://mooc1.communityforge.net/user/register

OS

Oli SB Fri 20 Apr 2018

Paid how? If in the mythical currency then Graham’s comment is spot on, in terms of it looking like a pyramid scheme...

CP

Christophe Parot Fri 20 Apr 2018

Today’s economy is a pyramid scheme managed by central banks. It can works only with a permanent growth ; Dollars and euro are created out of thin air and distributed to banks. Banks make loans and you have to pay the interests of the loans with your work, if you have one. Permanent growth on a planet with limited ressources is a lie.
Distributing a basic income to individuals and organisations will allow us to build a better world.
I am paid in Manna to promote this new paradigm, you may use it or stay with the previous old one which is increasing inequalities. It is up to you.

DS

Danyl Strype Sun 22 Apr 2018

You seem surprised by the healthy scepticism expressed here @christopheparot1 . Given that you are promoting a scheme that claims to give away free money, it would surprise me much more if people didn't want detailed explanations of how this is supposed to work in practice, before we involve ourselves in any way. You need to expect this, and be prepared to give detailed responses to and and all questions. If defensive hand-waving about the software being "open source" and your intentions being pure will convince anyone, I've got a bridge to sell them ;)

Today’s economy is a pyramid scheme managed by central banks

Everyone who has ever tried to sell me a pyramid scheme points this out when challenged to show the scheme they're selling is not a pyramid scheme. It's classic misdirection, because it doesn't answer the question, but pretends that it has by saying 'everything is a scam so why not buy into the scam I'm selling?'

Dollars and euro are created out of thin air and distributed to banks

This is true (see Modern Monary Theory) but irrelevant. Crypto-tokens issued by software are also created out of thin air. All money is a social agreement that otherwise useless tokens have exchange value (see Graeber's book 'Debt'). So what? What real value does a Manna token have? Who will accept them in exchange for goods or services?

Distributing a basic income to individuals and organisations will allow us to build a better world.

I agree, but again, it's irrelevant to the question of whether Manna is a viable way of doing this. So far, I see no reason to think it is.

CP

Christophe Parot Tue 1 May 2018

@strypey Let's imagine that I am announcing Libre Office, the new open source office suite, and I get a "it is a scam" or "too good to be true" answer, I would be surprised too. I am not selling anything, I am only announcing a new opensource currency displayed as a basic income. It is open source, it means you can try it for free and if you like it, you contribute to the project. If you don't like it, you don't use it and you don't pay anything. I did not ask any payment in fiat currency, this is why I am surprised about the "it is a scam" answer.
I understand that a new decentralized currency can be surprising for people who do not understand the purpose of a currency. Your reference to Greaber's book is a good one, I will add the money&society MOOC from IFLAS http://iflas.blogspot.fr/2014/12/money-and-society-mooc.html as another good one.
Is Manna a viable way of improving the economy ? if we can build trust around this new currency, yes, I think so. I noticed that you are a promoter of a besic income in another loomio group, so you already are convinced about the interest of a basic income. Because you have read Greaber, you also have understood that $ and € are not fair and carry a lot of social violence within them. So let try another currency. because you are a member of this group promoting opensource solutions, let's try an open source currency.

GC

Greg Cassel Tue 1 May 2018

I think that the concept of an open source currency with a UBI carries a lot of potential. However, I'm very skeptical about beginning to directly participate in any online system without knowing all of the pertinent details first.

For example I wouldn't get involved in a new currency without knowing precisely who governs it and how they make decisions, among many other things.

DS

Danyl Strype Tue 1 May 2018

Let’s imagine that I am announcing Libre Office, the new open source office suite, and I get a “it is a scam” or “too good to be true” answer, I would be surprised too.

Let me offer a different analogy. Let's say I posted on this group about the new Arbor basic income. The token is called a leaf, and everyone can get their share of leaves by downloading them from the nearest tree. Anyone can sequence the DNA of the tree their leaves come from, so the code is open source. Would you be excited and head out to download your leaves?

Who accepts Manna currency? What goods and services can be bought with it? I can download LibreOffice, type some documents, make a spreadsheet etc so it's useful to me without anyone else having to be involved. As Graeber says in Debt, money is only useful is there is a social agreement that is has value, and people accept it in exchange for scarce goods.

I did not ask any payment in fiat currency, this is why I am surprised about the "it is a scam" answer.

FarceBook don't ask us for fiat currency either, neither do goOgle or the birdsite or any of the other datafarms. Instead they make money selling our personal data. As others have already pointed out, we're asked to enter a lot of such data to claim our Manna tokens. On the net, that's the same a being asked for money, or worse.

I am not selling anything, I am only announcing a new opensource currency displayed as a basic income.

The link you posted here looks a lot like a reseller link of some kind, not just a straight link to an information page. So the impression I get is a business with no real product, and a multi-level marketing structure. Hmm. You interested in buying a bridge? ;-P

CP

Christophe Parot Wed 2 May 2018

You are right and all these questions are explained in the white paper.

DS

Danyl Strype Wed 2 May 2018

You are right and all these questions are explained in the white paper.

Great, so you can give us answers to them here, with links to the
relevant sections of the white paper, yes?

CP

Christophe Parot Wed 16 May 2018

My experience as a teacher is that if students are not ready to make an effort, it is not useful to chew their work.