Loomio
February 12th, 2015 01:01

New Help documentation - we want your feedback!

Hannah Salmon
Hannah Salmon Public Seen by 505

Hi generous community - we want your feedback :)

Lately we’ve been writing technical support/help documentation content for Loomio. We have implemented an initial overview, and now we would love to hear from you about what we can do to make it better!

You can visit the new Help page here: loomio.org/help.

This is the first comprehensive help documentation overview we’ve attempted, and we want to ensure its as helpful as it can be, so we would love it if you would take a moment to check out the new page and give us feedback.

Specifically, we’re looking for feedback on content quality, tone, language and structure.

  • What have we missed?
  • Is there anything about the content or structure that doesn’t make sense, is inaccessible or should be reworded?
  • Thinking back to when you first joined Loomio - what were your main questions as you got underway? Do you think this new documentation would have helped?

Please feel free to make any comments here in this Loomio discussion (go on, we can take it!), and link to specific parts of the documentation if that feels useful to you.

NB: Unfortunately, because this page has not been translated, we can only show you the English version right now.

Next steps are addressing your feedback, implementing content improvements, polishing, translation, and interface design and implementation. We’ll also be revisiting the content on the verge of the 1.0 release.

Thank you!

Lots of love,

Hannah (on behalf of Team Loomio)

Joum

Joum February 12th, 2015 07:59

Lots of information.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you mention this group "Loomio Community" other than the translate and feature subgroups.

Rob Guthrie

Rob Guthrie February 12th, 2015 20:07

Congratulations on this amazing piece of work!
I think it's ready for prime time as is.

James Wilson

James Wilson February 12th, 2015 22:10

Stunningly good. Well done.

James Wilson, from my Android

naught101

naught101 February 13th, 2015 01:30

The 5 points under "How do I get started" look like they should link somewhere. I think they probably should.

It would probably also be good to include a way for people to give feedback on that page, even if it's just a link to this page.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon February 15th, 2015 22:15

Thanks @lbjoum, yes, we should definitely have a prominent link to the community in there!

@jameswilson, thanks so much for your generous feedback :)

Hi @naught101, thanks very much for your input! That sounds like a good idea. Do you have any other interim feedback regarding content?

Rob Guthrie

Rob Guthrie February 17th, 2015 04:38

It would be cool to notify all users about the updated help docs... and include a link to them in a welcome email sent to all new users.

Alanna Irving

Alanna Irving February 17th, 2015 05:06

What do you think of doing one of those popup messages @richarddbartlett ?

Richard D. Bartlett

Richard D. Bartlett February 17th, 2015 05:11

Yeah good idea. I wonder if we want to get the español version up first though?

Matthew Bartlett

Matthew Bartlett February 17th, 2015 22:05

@richarddbartlett how about you and I have a quick think to see if there's a biz-mod-experiment angle to such a notification?

Presley

Presley February 21st, 2015 05:02

This is really nice! I noticed one thing I'd change. Editing comments is mentioned in Group Permissions and in Comments, and each one links to the other, but the details about edited comments (eg, the history is accessible) are in Group Permissions, and I think they'd fit better in Comments. That's where I'd look if I wanted to know what was going to happen if I edit a comment, and if I want to know what will happen if I allow comment editing, I'll know to follow the link to Comments.

I think more whitespace between subsections would also help, but I don't know if you wanted to talk about presentation yet.

I also have a question now that I've read the sub-group privacy part - if the parent group can see the sub-group, does that mean they can see that it exists, or that they can see its content?

Presley

Presley February 22nd, 2015 20:59

Also, what does the grey shading on some discussions in the dashboard mean?

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon February 22nd, 2015 21:49

Hi @presley, thanks very much for your feedback! I'll definitely incorporate the things you've mentioned into the documentation.

In answer to your first question about subgroup content visibility, whether the parent group can see a subgroup's content is dependant on the subgroup's discussion privacy.

When you create a new subgroup you will be given the option to make it visible to the parent group. If you decide that your group should be visible to members of the parent but not public, then in the "Who can see discussions?" segment of the "Privacy" settings, you can choose to make discussions visible to members of the parent, or to members of the group only. If you choose to make discussions visible to members only, then members of the parent will be able to see that the group exists, but not see the content. I've attached a screenshot of these options to clarify:

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon February 22nd, 2015 21:51

To answer your second question, the intended design is that the grey shading means new activity, but there are some kinks that we're working on :)

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon February 22nd, 2015 21:55

Hey thanks so much for the engagement thus far folks - greatly appreciated!

Thanks to @denjello's great suggestion, there are now links back to this feedback discussion at the bottom of each section (see attachment). Please keep the feedback coming! I'll implement the other suggested changes asap :)

Philippe Ponge

Philippe Ponge February 23rd, 2015 02:54

La nouvelle page d'aide semble très fournie et bien organisée.
Besoin d'une traduction en français pour vraiment en juger :-)

Alanna Irving

Alanna Irving February 23rd, 2015 04:58

@hannahsalmon since we can't translate all the help documentation right away, maybe just links to user generated help in other languages would be a good step? The one @philippeponge mentioned here and also I know there were some Spanish and Greek resources.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon February 23rd, 2015 05:33

@alanna, when you visit www.loomio.org/help with you browser set to a language other than English you are directed to the old help docs. We didn't want language to be a barrier to receiving help while we're still developing the new documentation. Maybe I should put links to the user generated help we have access to on both the new and old help docs?

Nati Lombardo

Nati Lombardo February 25th, 2015 22:41

Hi you all! I think that having the help in Spanish will be awesome so I'm happy to help (volunteer) getting that done. Once the documentation is polished please let me know and I can get into it on Transifex I'm assuming...?

Rob Guthrie

Rob Guthrie February 25th, 2015 22:53

Yea yea yea. Can we please translate the help now?

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel February 26th, 2015 20:49

I was hoping to have some useful feedback on the (generally awesome, epic) help page but I lacked capacity to focus on that. I understand the desire to translate ASAP, perhaps especially for the many Spanish speakers.

On a related note, @hannahsalmon , I guess the help page isn't entirely 'live' yet? I haven't seen a way to navigate to it, whether logged in or not. Are you guys planning to fully connect it and to translate it during the same frame of time?

I'm hoping that the Help page will become a prominent navigational option, either directly accessible on the index page or as a submenu option for "About", which is essentially an "About Us" page now (for some superb people). I've noticed that "About" isn't currently indexed for visitors, but it's linked prominently a fair ways down the middle of the page.

Richard D. Bartlett

Richard D. Bartlett February 26th, 2015 22:00

I just noticed that Gmail will often include a link to their help docs as part of the "flash message". I.e. "You just moved this discussion out of your inbox. Find out more."

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel February 26th, 2015 23:00

I don't wanna make your life more complicated @hannahsalmon but @presley had a great comment in "how can we make it easy for people to keep up to date with Loomio progress" today. I think it would be awesome if possible to add something small but prominent to the "Help" page, to address how users can keep up with Loomio development and (if they choose) become actively contributing members of the community.

For instance, the Help page is currently structured as:

"How do I get started?
1.Start a group to collaborate with people on Loomio
2.Invite people into your group
3.Start a discussion on any topic
4.Make a proposal to see how everyone feels about a particular course of action
5.Decide together: "

To me right now, it would actually make lots of sense to add something like "6.Follow the Loomio story." and link that to some very simple, clear info on how to follow updates (twitter, Trello roadmap, blog) and to join this Loomio Community if desired.

I do realize that I'm saying this over two weeks after you first asked for feedback, and you probably want to or need to press forward. O:)

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon March 1st, 2015 20:41

Hey feedback-providers, I've just updated the help docs to include Presley's suggestions, so please keep them coming :)

@gregorycassel, thanks very much for your input. You can access the Help page from inside the app by clicking on your user menu and selecting “Help”. But I’ve also just put a link in the footer, and we we are currently thinking about the best ways to expose it so that people can find it when they need it.

Hmm, I’m not sure about putting a 6th step into that initial quick start guide, but I think you’re right in that the help docs could be a good place to inform users of how they can keep up with Loomio development and/or become contributing members of the community.

Currently there are two questions in the FAQ section of the help docs that relate to engaging with Loomio development:

“What if I have a feature to suggest?” and “What’s coming up in the Loomio development pipeline?”

…but I’m aware that doesn’t cover everything that has been discussed in that thread, and is the FAQ too invisible? Maybe there should be a whole section called something like “Contributing to Loomio” or even just "The Loomio Community" which could include explanations of the various aspects to the community - open source contributions, the roadmap, this here group etc..?

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel March 4th, 2015 01:44

I do think that a section called something like "Contributing to Loomio" or "The Loomio Community" would be helpful. Also, it seems like a lack of awareness of the trello roadmap (especially Ideas Backlog) comes up pretty often. The upvoting on trello cards would be more meaningful if more people engaged there. It would be helpful IMO to create more passive awareness of trello. :)

Presley

Presley March 4th, 2015 02:08

Related to Greg's idea, here are some questions I've had (some of which I still have) regarding participating in the community:

  • should users start a proposals in the Loomio Community? (it seems like generally no, as when people do, they get like 10 votes and then think that because 8 people agreed, something should happen)
  • should I vote or comment on the Trello cards (so few people do that I'm not sure if I'm being obnoxious when I do)
  • should I revive really old discussions or start new ones?
  • should I suggest a feature even though it's a bad time for new features?
  • is the Ideas Backlog is meant to contain things that will be implemented when there's time, or just things that might be implemented and will be discussed further?
Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel March 4th, 2015 04:24

@presley are you suggesting those (excellent) questions as possible additions to the Help document, or are they things you're still wondering about yourself? I'd prefer for core team members to comment on some of them (instead of me)... however, some of them could actually be good new topics unto themselves.

Presley

Presley March 4th, 2015 04:35

Both :). I'm still wondering about most of them, which is my anecdotal evidence that there's something to be gained by covering them somewhere. A section on contributing in the Help page seems like a good place to me.

Alanna Irving

Alanna Irving March 4th, 2015 05:15

Good questions @presley - basically we've designed a system for an aspirational reality where we have a lot more development capacity to be building new features. So right now, lots of things get suggested and added to the backlog, but don't get actioned. I really hope that shifts soon and we can start implementing a lot of the great ideas. I do think it's really valuable to suggest features, engage with cards in the backlog, etc, because someday we will be able to do more development, and at that point we really want to build the most useful stuff for users!

Regarding "should I revive old discussion or start new ones" - I would say if the old discussion has relevant context, please revive the old one. If it's actually a different topic, start a new one and link back to the other one if it's relevant. This is a judgement call I'm happy for users to make themselves since there's no black and white answer. Often times past discussions have a lot of rich content that's good to include.

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel March 4th, 2015 06:19

should users start a proposals in the Loomio Community? (it seems like generally no, as when people do, they get like 10 votes and then think that because 8 people agreed, something should happen)

If anyone feels that their independent proposal with maybe 1-3% community engagement means that something should happen, they are perfectly free to express that view and see how it goes from there. I don't think of that as a major problem.

However, perhaps it could be made somewhat clearer in How the Loomio Community Works (which is linked in Loomio Community's front page description) that Loomio Community decisions, and (most of) its subgroup decisions, are non-binding with respect to Loomio Cooperative.

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 8th, 2015 14:42

Aid begins with:

How do I get started?
1- Start a group to collaborate with people on Loomio
2- Invite people into your group

I would order the sequence as follows 3, 4, 5, 1, 2

In my humble opinion, before being expert in creating a group, you have to be an expert in debates and proposals.

The novice continues with the same problem: the first is access button "Start a group" to create a new group, while still not know what it means

The frustracción can be the source of disappointment and failure of new user

I commented on this same issue in the discussion

"Try It" / Sandbox / Demo - a better experience for first time users wanting to see how Loomio works

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 8th, 2015 14:57

Need more information?
Sections:
1- Getting started.
5- Discussion threads.
6- Comments.
7- Proposals.
2- Group configuration.
3- Coordinating your group.
4- Inviting new members.
8- Sub-groups.

I would order the sequence follows 1, 5, 6, 7, 2, 3, 4, 8
You also need to update the content of point 1

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 8th, 2015 20:04

Detail convenient to take into account

Accept Invitation
1- Liberty to decide: when it lacks a user account Loomio.
2- Without liberty to decide: when you Loomio user account because it is adhered directly as a group member.

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 8th, 2015 20:15

You have to update the image and description, with the option twitter

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 9th, 2015 18:03

I propose the following change

Getting Started

The first time you enter Loomio and before creating a user account, we suggest visiting the Explore page, to learn how some existing groups function.

You might join in a few ways. Here's some information about each entry point:
- When you are invited into a Loomio group
- When you want to join an existing Loomio group the Explore page,
- When you want to start a new Loomio group
- Single sign-on

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 9th, 2015 19:06

In section received invitation to join Loomio I suggest to add copies of the two models of emails that can be received:
1- join the group
2- adhered to group

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon March 9th, 2015 22:43

Hi @carlosgallogaravan, thanks so much for your feedback. To respond to your first point, unfortunately we can't really reorder the How do I get started? sequence because we currently don't have a sandbox so you need to have a group to start a discussion.

With regards to the other suggested changes, we have a lot of work to do - the docs in their current form are just an interim step. We'll be doing our best to incorporate all use-cases and probably transitioning to another format in the near future. We are extremely grateful for your feedback, and for all the hard work you've done making Loomio accessible. We will definitely be incorporating your feedback into the next iteration if not beforehand.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon March 10th, 2015 04:17

Hey everyone! We've just deployed an update to the help docs which includes additional sections on contributing to Loomio, this here Loomio Community and ways to keep up with Loomio development. We'll be iterating on these sections, along with everything else.

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel March 10th, 2015 04:45

Awesome; I really love the new sections so far. :) Thanks so much for the update @hannahsalmon .

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 11th, 2015 17:44

@hannahsalmon possibly explained poorly or using the google translator

In Loomio how many groups and users exist?

Not all users Loomio created a group, nor are coordinators

The inexperience of the group coordinator, can generate an inefficient and misuse of Loomio

By these comment I posted the above comment:

Getting Started
The first time you enter Loomio and before creating a user account, we suggest visiting the Explore page, to learn how some existing groups function.

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 11th, 2015 18:20

@hannahsalmon two months ago, this subject was discussed during another discussion.

@theodoretaptiklis offered for demonstration and my proposal: create the "Beginners - Demonstration" group

https://www.loomio.org/d/rF5sRH9y/try-it-sandbox-demo-a-better-experience-for-first-time-users-wanting-to-see-how-loomio-works

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel March 11th, 2015 19:55

@carlosgallogaravan I liked the idea of a Beginners-Demonstration area. I don't think anyone used the "Create a proposal" option in that old discussion. (It's not too late!)

A good proposal might be something like this:

1. To create a subgroup of Loomio Community called "Beginners-Demonstration"
2. To link that subgroup in the new Help document

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 12th, 2015 14:10

sub-group: Beginners
Related Topic in link

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 15th, 2015 17:57

It would be useful to add the following text

When inviting new members is exclusive to the coordinators, group members can only invite new members through the invitation made by a coordinator.

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 15th, 2015 18:33

On pages 13, 14 and 15 of the manual utilization of Loomio, I prepared in Spanish, I wrote 11 questions that may need to consult the invited person

Seven are already formulated and you can add the following four:

1- What is a discussion?

2- Who is responsible for comments?

3- What to Avoid When Writing a comment?

4- Are filtered or control the written comments?

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano March 15th, 2015 18:56

Error in the following text

click the "More ..." link in the "Members" panel on the left-hand side of your group page.

Is on the right side

click the "More ..." link in the "Members" panel on the right-hand side of your group page.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon March 31st, 2015 23:47

Hi @carlosgallogaravan, thanks very much for alerting us to the text errors! With regards to your other suggestions, it sounds like there is some overlap between technical help (documentation that shows people how to use Loomio) and cultural help (documentation that supports people collaborate effectively) in what you're describing. We are currently in the process of writing cultural help documentation and figuring out the best ways to expose our learnings around effective collaboration on Loomio, as well as the learnings of others. This is an ongoing project, but we'll definitely have more public content of this nature soon, so please stay tuned for developments :)

RS

Rowena Skinner April 23rd, 2015 05:28

Love Loomio very simple to use. One question i have and can't find an answer to, can you set the discussion so that the most recent is at the top not at the bottom, thanks?

Carlos Gallo Garavano

Carlos Gallo Garavano April 23rd, 2015 07:33

@rowenaskinner1 When logged in, a blue line is positioned in the first comment of the discussion that needs to read.

The culture we have suggests the latest down

L

Lisa April 24th, 2015 10:19

Hi, under the paragraph headed "Deleting a Discussion" there are three options given.... Edit, Move, Delete. A useful fourth option, very useful, would be "Archive".

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel April 24th, 2015 17:05

Hi @LisaMac , I agree about the "Archive" option. This subject has some history at Loomio, with considerable agreement and support. I know it was not a focus of the core team as they approach the release of Loomio 1.0. Please see this discussion for some historical perspective. Additionally, you can vote for the "close/archive" option on the Loomio Roadmap. :)

DB

David Best April 25th, 2015 21:53

I was just looking through the Help documentation and have the following tips for consideration.
1. "When logged in, a blue line is positioned in the first comment of the discussion that needs to read."
This will mean nothing to a user who is colour blind.
2. Statements like:
"Starting a new Loomio group can be done at any time." ... "If you wish to change your group settings you can do so by clicking the “Options” button on the top right-hand corner of the group page, and selecting the “Edit group settings” option."
"Click" is a Mouse user term, and may not mean anything to a Keyboard user. Also, "Left", "Right", and "Top corner" have no meaning to user agents like screen readers.
3. Assistive technology like Pointers and screen readers, requires proper HTML markup is critical for ease of navigation and content context understanding. The Help page is a large page and very tedious to navigate with a keyboard. Heading hierarchy structure is also important; for some reason Heading level 2 is missing.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon April 27th, 2015 23:46

Hey @davidbest, thanks very much for you review! We appreciate that there's a lot of work to be done to make this document accessible. The second iteration (to accompany the new interface) will address the issues with the current document. I'll be making a few changes to the help docs over the next day or so, and if it's ok with you I'd love to @mention you and get your feedback.

DB

David Best April 28th, 2015 11:54

Hannah, glad to help where ever I can.

RS

Rowena Skinner April 30th, 2015 09:17

That is quite annoying when there are loads of comments and you have to scroll down for the most recent. Is there any way the user can alter their screens of is this a programming thingy?

Thanks,

Cheers,

Rowena.

Rowena Skinner

Office Manager

Office Open Mon-Thurs 10-4

The Greens (WA) Inc.

445 Hay St. Perth WA 6000

Ph 08 9221 8333

office@wa.greens.org.au ( office@wa.greens.org.au )

www. wa.greens.org.au

ABN 41 747 355 722

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

http://i.imgur.com/teg5M2c.png

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon May 1st, 2015 00:58

Hi @rowenaskinner1,

Thanks for your feedback. The functionality you're referring to has been discussed in-depth here in the Loomio Community (if you're interested you can view a discussion here. We're currently in the process of making big improvements to the whole interface, including the discussion page. The new interface will make discussions easier to read, even if they have lots of content.

In the current configuration, if there is more than one page of activity in a discussion, the previous pages will have a link to the comment box at the bottom of the page. Furthermore, if there is activity you have not read then when you land on the discussion page you will arrive at the first unread item. The impetus for configuring the discussion activity this way was to help people follow the natural flow of a discussion, so their contributions to the discussion take into account the things others have said, leading to more productive dialogue.

Hannah Salmon

Hannah Salmon May 1st, 2015 01:03

@davidbest, we've made a couple of small changes to the current help documentation. I would be interested to hear if they improve the current experience at all. We will be doing an overhaul soon. Thank you again for your help.

DB

David Best May 1st, 2015 12:52

Hannah, I can't tell what has been changed in the Help. I look forward to the overall. Thanks for your attention to improving the readability of the Help.

RS

Rowena Skinner May 11th, 2015 06:15

Thanks Hannah, look forward to the changes.

Cheers,

Rowena.

Rowena Skinner

Office Manager

Office Open Mon-Thurs 10-4

The Greens (WA) Inc.

445 Hay St. Perth WA 6000

Ph 08 9221 8333

office@wa.greens.org.au ( office@wa.greens.org.au )

www. wa.greens.org.au

ABN 41 747 355 722

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

http://i.imgur.com/teg5M2c.png