Nationalism & Pirate values

While the idea of sovereignty can be defended for a people who do not have full democratic rights or suffer oppression, nationalism often ends up in identitary sentiments when it comes to culture. This usually means association with an in-group, leading to exaggerated claims about the greatness of their own people. This is often paired with a dissociation from a perceived out-group, other nations, immigrants, foreigners, other religious groups. Even nationalist parties who claim to be "inclusive" never are so in reality. The best example in our own country is N-VA.

The ideology may have proven its merit after the peace of Westphalia and can have liberated some oppressed groups in general society. But I cannot help but notice the ideology no longer serves any good purpose in our modenr Western society (actually since the early 19th century its merit was completely lost). Right now it's often a source of heated conflict and a catalyst for armed confrontation. Often it also goes hand-in-hand with regimes of autocracy. So no, I do not support it myself.

When it comes to Catalonia, I cannot really comment on the validity of the referendum as I may lack the proper knowledge but let it suffice to say I have my doubts. It doesn't look like every Catalan was able to voice his opinion.

Supporting nationalist sentiment does not seem very pirate-like to me. If Catalan pirates are won for the idea of independance, I'd like to see their reasoning. So if you have any sources, I'd like to see them. Preferably in English. :)

In general agree with Tim.
However I should add that the case of Scotland made me consider nationalism from another perspective, beyond that of "Nation state": that is, what can also be behind nationalism is a reaction against the absence of democracy, against the centralised State that pushes its politics top-down. And Pirates are on that side.

Many arguments I heard around Scotland's independence seemed on that side to me. For Catalonia, on the other hand, it is true that I felt it much more like traditional Nationalism, "us against them".

Mea culpa to close: no references to cite here yet... sorry. :confused: I'll try and bring some if I find the time to search back.

It seems the point brought by Tim can be a good reference to where we can look for ground:

(...)the idea of sovereignty can be defended for a people who do not have full democratic rights or suffer oppression(...)

@valeried it would be helpful to bring factual examples in Scotland, no rush, whenever is possible.

I will also try to dig for material.

Here is what is in wikipedia:

Scottish nationalism promotes the idea that the Scottish people form a cohesive nation and national identity and is closely linked to the cause of Scottish home rule and Scottish independence, the ideology of the Scottish National Party, the party forming the Scottish Government.

I'd like to add also the negative test* that can also be used as reference to spot if a movement is falling into values that go against pirate values of openness and respect of civil rights:

Abstract from Tim's comment:

(...)association with an in-group, leading to exaggerated claims about the greatness of their own people. This is often paired with a dissociation from a perceived out-group, other nations, immigrants, foreigners, other religious groups.(...)

*please understand negative test in the sense that if the result is true, then the point against which it was tested is not desirable, e.g. online form/phone number field: letters are not to be allowed. A negative test would be: enter a letter in the phone number field - if letters are allowed in that field, this is not desirable.

Les ravages causés par le nationalisme sont multiples. Ils sont bien illustrés et analysés dans la série documentaire en 7 épisodes "La grande guerre des nations".

"google translate"

The ravages caused by nationalism are manifold. They are well illustrated and analyzed in the documentary series in 7 episodes "The great war of the nations".

En français plus bas

I think there is a parallel to do between nationalism and municipalism. I'm not going to redefine what nationalism is, others have done it much better than me, and I think everyone knows what it's about, even approximately. Regarding municipalism, it mainly aims a greater autonomy of the cities and decentralization of political power. Saillans is an example frequently cited, but there is also Frome, etc. The ultimate goal of municipalism is to establish a confederation of cities, sharing common rules but where decisions are made locally. (I am reading The Libertarian Municipalism, but having not finished it yet, I may have made some shortcuts or misunderstandings...)

What I see in common is that both nationalism and municipalism are struggling against the centralization of political power. However, there are a lot of differences:
* In general, nationalism is based on a cultural, ethnic, religious,... identity to claim its independence, more autonomy, etc....
* Nationalism becomes less intense once more autonomy has been granted to the communities
* Municipalism aims for maximum decentralization of the nation-State, where nationalism, in case of independence, does not promise to decentralize political power.

I'm not sure if this help the debate to progress, but I had this in mind since a few days ^{^}

Je pense qu'il y a un parallèle à faire entre le nationalisme et le municipalisme. Je ne vais pas redéfinir ce qu'est le nationalisme, d'autres l'ont fait bien mieux que moi, et je pense que tout le monde voit de quoi il s'agit plus ou moins. Le municipalisme quant à lui repose essentiellement sur une plus grande autonomie des communes et une décentralisation du pouvoir politique. Saillans est un exemple souvent cité, mais il y a aussi Frome, etc. Le but ultime du municipalisme est de mettre en place une confédération de communes, partageant des règles communes mais où les décisions sont prises de manière locale. (Je suis en train de lire Le Municipalisme libertaire, mais ne l'ayant pas encore terminé, il se peut que j'ai fait des raccourcis ou des erreurs de compréhension...)

Le point commun que je vois, est que le nationalisme et le municipalisme se battent tous deux contre la centralisation du pouvoir politique. Par contre, il y a pas mal de différences :
* En général, le nationalisme se base sur une identité culturelle, ethnique, religieuse, ... pour réclamer son indépendance, plus d'autonomie, etc.
* Le nationalisme perd en intensité une fois que plus d'autonomie a été accordée aux régions
* Le municipalisme vise une décentralisation maximale de l'État-nation, là où le nationalisme, en cas d'indépendance, ne promet pas de décentraliser le pouvoir politique.

Voilà, je ne sais pas si cela fait avancer le débat, mais j'avais ceci en tête depuis quelques jours ^{^}

It is the first time I hear about municipalism, so thank you for sharing.

:slight_smile:

Food for thought questions:

** What does it really mean, "autonomy"? **

** How does cooperation fit into the puzzle? **

Français puis (avec DeepL Translator) English and Dutch

What does it really mean, "autonomy"?

How does cooperation fit into the puzzle?

Si nous nous plaçons dans une perspective de type médicale en politique, le terme
"autonomy" renvoi au fait pour les personnes de participer à l'élaboration des solutions
relatives aux problèmes qui les concernent. C'est toujours mieux
que les patients participent activement aux traitements que par exemple
d'autres veulent leur administrer.

La coopération s'intègre automatiquement si les travaux réalisés s'effectuent
de manière inter-dépendante. Il s'agit de ne pas considérer ses seuls problèmes,
mais de manière simultanée ceux des autres également.
A ce moment là des actions peuvent être coordonnées pour le bénéfice de toutes
les parties.

Nous sommes donc, dans la situation présente, très loin de cette manière de vivre
en société car chacun aujourd'hui cherche la meilleure position à tenir
pour être en mesure d'effectuer des prédations maximalisées pour sa communauté.

English

If we look at it from a medical perspective in politics, the term
"autonomy" refers to individuals participating in the development of solutions
related to the problems that concern them. It's always better
that patients actively participate in treatments such as, for example
others want to administer them.

The cooperation is automatically integrated if the work performed is carried out
in an interdependent way. It is not just a matter of considering one's own problems,
but at the same time those of others as well.
At this point, actions can be coordinated for the benefit of all parties.
the parties.

We are therefore, in the present situation, very far from this way of life.
in society because everyone today is looking for the best position to hold.
to be able to carry out predation for his community.

Dutch

Als we het vanuit medisch oogpunt in de politiek bekijken, wordt de term
Onder "autonomie" wordt verstaan: personen die deelnemen aan de ontwikkeling van oplossingen
gerelateerd aan de problemen die hen aangaan. Het is altijd beter
dat patiënten actief deelnemen aan behandelingen zoals bijvoorbeeld
anderen willen ze beheren.

De samenwerking wordt automatisch geïntegreerd als de uitgevoerde werkzaamheden worden uitgevoerd
op onderling afhankelijke wijze. Het gaat er niet alleen om de eigen problemen in overweging te nemen,
maar tegelijkertijd ook die van anderen.
Op dit moment kunnen acties worden gecoördineerd ten behoeve van alle partijen.
de partijen.

In de huidige situatie zijn we dus ver verwijderd van deze manier van leven.
in de samenleving, omdat iedereen vandaag de dag op zoek is naar de beste positie om vast te houden.
om predatie voor zijn gemeenschap te kunnen uitvoeren.

Français, puis (deepl translatror) anglais et néerlandais

Le nationalisme et le municipalisme ne constituent pas des solutions en soi. Le problème réside dans la confiscation des ressources (intellectuelles et matérielles) par une minorité. Une municipalité soi disant démocratique peut se développer au détriment de ses voisins. Il en va de même avec le nationalisme: une communauté dite nationale peut se constituer pour spolier d'autres communautés, qui par exemple sont plus solidaires.

English
Nationalism and municipalism are not solutions in themselves. A so-called democratic municipality can develop to the detriment of its neighbours. The same is true of nationalism: a so-called national community can be formed to plunder other communities, which, for example, are more supportive.

Dutch

Nationalisme en municipalisme zijn geen oplossingen op zich. Een zogenaamde democratische gemeente kan zich ontwikkelen ten koste van haar buren. Hetzelfde geldt voor nationalisme: er kan een zogenaamde nationale gemeenschap worden gevormd om andere gemeenschappen te plunderen, die bijvoorbeeld meer steun geven.