Loomio
Wed 21 May 2014

Introductions

JV
Joshua Vial Public Seen by 831

This thread is for people to introduce themselves to the group and also act as a placeholder wiki with introductory information until we sort something out.

This document coalesced some of the thinking that had been brewing for about a year at enspiral and this talk by JV has some of the thinking behind the 'software package for cultural dna' idea.

When introduce maybe talk about

  • your background
  • why you are interested in this project
  • what sort of work you are interested in picking up
U

Ubuntourist Thu 25 Jun

"Luvly" Thanks for the heads up.

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 25 Jun

Libre Organize just got some love in social.coop:
https://social.coop/@clayton/104405634425492084

U

Ubuntourist Tue 23 Jun

Hi there,

So. I've spend most of my life hiding in academia, though I'm not an academic. I was a programmer, first for the computer center at Gallaudet University, and then for the Gallaudet Research Institute at Gallaudet University. Now, I'm part of a wee worker-owned co-op, NOVA Web Development. Most of the members are working on either our flagship product LibreOrganize or our business tracker system (which, I think we're still keeping under wraps for now. So, no linky goodness there.) We've deployed customized / themed versions of LibreOrganize for a few organizations.

I on the other hand, still end up working, albeit now on contract, for Gallaudet University.

I also do a lot of networking and outreach for the team, and in digging around recently, I found Open App, which seemed in some ways to parallel what LibreOrganize is trying to be or be a part of. Hence, my reaching out here.

We're all passionate about F/LOSS, (co-founder Jeff Elkner and I have been using Linux since 1993), education (he's a high school teacher, and most of the members are current and former students of his), social justice, etc., etc. Most are in the Northern Virginia area, but we have a few people in El Salvador as well. Our target market is the labor movement, unions, progressive political organizations, schools and educational organizations. Probably several I missed in there, but that should give you a feel for what we're about.

The giants whose shoulders our platform is standing upon are Linux, Nginx, Gunicorn, Python, Django, and PostgreSQL. Although I've done some work with those -- well, Apache in place of Nginx, and wsgi in place of Gunicorn -- I'm not the person to talk with about the bowels of LibreOrganize.

But I can do my networking thing, or you can use the links above to reach out to us.

Thanks for having me.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Mon 22 Jun

Hi Michel,

thank you. I am working for a "Mindfulness in context" approach with my colleague Don McCown and this will help.

I wonder if you are available in case i will be able to schedule an online Late Summer School on "Wise Commoning in the post Covid-19 phase " in September. It is expected to last for 2 days. You could be involved for the time we agree and about what you choose; i will see about fees compensation from my university.
Faculty (expected): Viviana Zelizer, Julie Nelson, Margunn Bjornholt, Donald McCown, you and myself.

Best,

Enzo

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Sun 21 Jun

Great!

Thank you.

Warm wishes,

Enzo

M

mike_hales Sun 21 Jun

I’m not an engineer. But @Graham is actively developing care coops, and might have some design/supply connections in the health field?

@amcewen@mastodon.me.uk is part of a fablab in Liverpool which has been making Covid equipment (visors), and perhaps has wider fablab connections.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Sun 21 Jun

Yes, a complicated nested thing like your mychosomething
image.png

Right?

Much easier to change or substitute Amazon or Google than a religion!

Now I am involved in an unexpected Call about Covid-19. Part of the project is about checking the quality (compliance and conformity to standard health PPEs) and costs of self-produced PersonalProtectionEquipments in a project oriented to the commoning and self-organization of prevention and insurance from the risk of the next CoronaVirus. Are you an engineer? Any interest in additive manufacture and self-organization in the health field?

Cheers,

Enzo

M

mike_hales Sun 21 Jun

Hi Enzo / Good to pick up these interconnections and resonances, thanks - especially ‘contemplative social sciences’. This is such a tangled weave! Mycorrhizal, even ;-)

LF

Lynn Foster Sun 21 Jun

Hi new people, this thread seems a bit dead, but it actually is a good place for you to introduce yourself and/or your projects, if you like. Or start a new thread for something specific if that works for you. The OAE is generally a pretty loose network, where a lot of people follow along with the discussions or projects they are interested in, and people meet others they might want to collaborate with. Usually these projects are happening elsewhere and just report or connect in here for the OAE crowd. Anyhow, welcome to the people who have joined in (yipes!) the last year.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Tue 9 Apr 2019

Hi Mike,

thank you for your inquiry.

I guess what others and I do is consistent with the patterning you care about.

The knowledge and practices of the traditions of wisdom can today be interpreted, and lived, in secular form as a common resource of the community, beyond their original forms and peculiar characteristics, including enclosures, in which they have been built socially over time. They relate to existential suffering and are methods inherent to life skills.
The blog at this link is part of the efforts in this direction: https://www.loomio.org/g/oVUOrcTq/contemplative-commons
Moreover, I edited a book with Zach Walsh (see the link below) on the encounter between contemplative social sciences and radical knowledge in co-designing the economies in transition.
This article could also be of help: http://peerproduction.net/issues/issue-11-city/experimental-format/life-skills-for-peer-production-walking-together-through-a-space-of-not-knowing/

Best regards,

enzo

M

mike_hales Sun 7 Apr 2019

@vincenzogiorgino coming late to this thread, pardon me . . Could you say more/give links regarding 'contemplative commons'? I'm wondering whether this notion is related to 'emotional commons' or commons of heart-mind, which is one of my own main development areas, in approaching a 'pattern language for commoning.

LF

Lynn Foster Tue 5 Mar 2019

Welcome new people! If you feel so moved, you can introduce yourselves here, optional of course.... :)

M

mike_hales Sat 5 Jan 2019

I love the spirit of this @olisb thanks for posting. At the same time there's no way in this or a future life I mean to be a code hacker. When Zach/coolguy says " The future is one where technology is reclaimed by everyone; it is open and welcoming and asking to be built by hand" I absolutely get it (one of my alter egos is 'barefoot doc'. And I do have an engineering degree). But there's so much in 'modern life' that is technical and needs rebulding by hand. Myself, I'm a culture hacker - genres of communicating and collaborating, 'the dance of knowing' (code is a department of this), 'the moral economy of the crowd', commoning, facilitation . . and on, and on: all rendered pretty technical in this professionalised corporatist propertarian world. I won't write my own apps, translate protocols into working code, run my own server (DAT maybe yes?) or maintain a presence in gitHub, any more than I'll grow my own cabbages, bake my own bread and cook my own medicinal herbs. I'm just very happy if there are kind devs who will carefully build platforms on ActivityPub within the OAE under OpenValue. Etc. These infrastructures are vital for achieving all the OTHER technical handmade things for living and working in a commons of commons. Right on Zach! Strength to the Scuttleverse!

OS

Oli SB Fri 4 Jan 2019

Not sure how I found this, or where exactly to repost it but here seems appropriate as it is the best intro to what we are trying to do here, there, and everywhere, that I have read in a long time - https://coolguy.website/writing/the-future-will-be-technical/index.html
Cool to see @bobhaugen get namechecked in 'requirements' too ;)
It's a quick read and highly worth the time.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 2 Jan 2019

Reminder to new people: we have this lovely Introductions thread and would be happy and interested if you introduced yourself and what you are interested in and/or working on that fits into OAE somewhere...

OS

Oli SB Tue 18 Dec 2018

Hi again @christopher7 - I ran through your Prezzie - thanks for sharing that. It does sound a little like you are angry at Holo for loss of employment and using your internal knowledge to try and do them reputational damage. It is true that they have taken on a huge challenge - essentially re-designing the internet - and I am sure there would be disagreements in any software development team which is trying to do that, since to be effective a project of that nature has to follow a certain vision, or it will get lost in divergence... It's hard to comment about anyone getting "fired" without knowing the details from both sides of the story - but I hope you find other work building another part of the OAE somewhere...
best,
Oli

OS

Oli SB Tue 18 Dec 2018

Holo is one of the most impressive projects I have ever seen - and I've been looking since 2004. People here might enjoy the 2 interviews I did with Matthew Schutte from the Holo team - which explain some of the principles behind Holochain and Host and where they are going with it https://open.coop/2018/06/14/holochain-perfect-framework-decentralised-cooperation-scale/

I have seen no evidence at all that there is any "vendor lock in" (especially since I can run my open Holochain/s with whoever I chose in my own network - without requiring any central authority, by simply using the Holochain - open source code) and @christopher7 I would be interested to see how you can demonstrate it is a dead end? It's always better to back up claims like that, don't you think?

K

Kristian Tue 18 Dec 2018

Tough stuff. I'm not deep enough into the architecture after making a brief walk-through, but I understood some of the issues in there. Wonder whether they choose to do "difficult"(?) business practises by design - or whether the task at hand is just too big, their priorities are set in a way so they can't spend time on dealing with these issues by now. At the very least, firing people who provide critical input seems a rather bad move.

C

Christopher Mon 17 Dec 2018

I was the core team from within a month of the start of the project. lol. they are I their "third" core team now. since they fire anyone with industry experience and morals.

here is the breakdown of their software https://prezi.com/view/NvRAZ35fln9i70V3YCrl/
I tried very hard to address this, but since it is deliberate policy, I was driven out of the organisation.

can't really overstate how their public face is different to their corporate internals

TB

Tiberius Brastaviceanu Mon 17 Dec 2018

I don't agree with this characterization. I know the core team pretty well and if you follow their decade-long work you'll probably change your opinion.

K

Kristian Mon 17 Dec 2018

Hmmm... Doesn't sound all too helpful then. I was still digging through the *chain stuff on their website.

C

Christopher Mon 17 Dec 2018

holo are a pretty nasty corporate group with demonstrably dead end, vendor lock in technology.

K

Kristian Mon 17 Dec 2018

Thanks for the pointer. Actually, still am trying to figure out what's already "out there" in terms of approaches, companies, actors dealing with such issues. Got to take a deeper dive into holo, then; so far it didn't really appear on my radar. This is one of the reasons I'm here for, I guess. ;)

TB

Tiberius Brastaviceanu Mon 17 Dec 2018

Read your blob post. I am very surprised you didn't mention https://holo.host/ and holochain

K

Kristian Mon 17 Dec 2018

Hi, I'm Kristian. Invited here by Strypey on mastodon, thought I'd just join in to see what happens here. Studied computer science in the 1990s, been working in systems administration earlier and software development later ever since. Working as technical lead for a mid-sized company now. Been into GNU/Linux and Software Libre ever since I read the GNU manifesto for the first time during my studies; been using both excessively on professional systems (servers) as well as my working and personal computers. At some point however I started wondering whether we run into issues claiming that we actually want Software Libre, software and services that are free-as-in-free-speech, while at the same time accept that most of these services end up being free-as-free-beer as well. At the very least in days in which we see massively advertisement- and tracking-funded "gratis" infrastructure out there, we might need different ideas how to solve these problems. Plus, with all distrust in large services such as Google, Amazon AWS, ..., I also see they do have quite some advantages in terms of ecology and sustainability - make sure infrastructure is operated and managed in a professional, optimized manner rather than having a load of small teams burdened with keeping infrastructure of their own running, keeping them from doing what they actually want to do. My idea to solve this, a while ago, was a scribble I titled "LibreSaaS" (see https://dm.zimmer428.net/2018/11/libresaas-revisited/); I have no idea whether this is smart or even remotely doable. However, I wonder which ideas to solve these problems might be around here. :)

DS

Danyl Strype Tue 11 Dec 2018

@alexrollin are you still around? Are you involved in KDIM in Indonesia by any chance? I met some of the KDIM folks at the recent Platform Cooperative Conference in Hong Kong.

DS

Danyl Strype Tue 11 Dec 2018

Great to see you here @progcodepj ! There seem to be a lot of us thinking along similar lines (do you know anyone from Drutopia or Community Builder, for example?). One of my goals as a lurker around the OAE is to bring in informal reps from as many projects as possible (apps, platforms, support orgs etc), to have nuts and bolts discussions about what folks are building, and how we can avoid reinventing the wheel, so we can do more together. Please put the word out to everyone at ProgCode that we'd love to have a rep or two here from any projects they're involved in.

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 6 Nov 2018

I see some new people mentioning blockchains in their requests for membership. Might be interesting to learn what you have in mind for blockchains and ecosystems of open apps...

C

Christopher Wed 1 Aug 2018

Ill dig out the actual whitepaper for @ in the next few days

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 1 Aug 2018

they werent trying to hide it, we just didnt realise how much it was needed

No prob. No hurry. When it happens.

C

Christopher Wed 1 Aug 2018

so the CPU control tool is based here: github.com/jaydayzee/at

The data stuff I am negotiating next week with a team to open the project. They are up for it, but we have a bunch of p's and q's to cross with the people their funding came from. They are in Canada. I can try and get some documents, but the entire project should be open within the next month. They are working on community projects, but this tool was created as an underlying support for their products. Having been to Open COOP, its become clear that a need for this stuff is a huge need of the industry, and they werent trying to hide it, we just didnt realise how much it was needed

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 1 Aug 2018

Anything I can look at? Code, demo, more details?

C

Christopher Wed 1 Aug 2018

Thank you Bob.

So... there are two parts to our infrastructure. One stems from deep data requirements, producing the minimum possible storage infrastructure in order to implement what everyone seems to be saying that they want - this is based on a mixture of hashchains and dynamic data filters, its also designed to support a complex ecosystem of services whilst being completely GDPR compliant up to the highest level of compliance requirements (the NHS, for example).

The second tool is about interacting with a runtime machine. How best to interact with a CPU, from the perspective of a human being. At the moment, programming and development tools are developed from the perspective of making it easier to control the CPU. Our tools are built from a completely different perspective, and should help to address both the very large gap between community designers, and systems developers, and also provide much more human languages than "English" [ or any other written or audio language ] to communicate about complex ideas, or between large numbers of people.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 1 Aug 2018

@christopher7 you wrote:

We are working on deep software infrastructure that should support or cohere with what is going on here.

Please say more about that?

Could someone help me out, can I reverse the dates of posts on a loomio channel?

Sorry, I don't know, but there should be a menu if you click on your profile picture with Help and Contact Loomio.

C

Christopher Wed 1 Aug 2018

Dear Everyone.

So I was at the open coop 2018 event. I met some good people. We are working on deep software infrastructure that should support or cohere with what is going on here. Im very pleased to have such a large, active community to communicate with and work with.

Could someone help me out, can I reverse the dates of posts on a loomio channel?

MB

Michel Bauwens Wed 1 Aug 2018

of course Bob, go ahead,

Michel

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 1 Aug 2018

Dear Michel, may I suggest (and is it ok if I copy your comment into) a new Loomio thread in this same group? I think it is related to open apps, and vice versa, and will explain the relationships I see in that other thread.

MB

Michel Bauwens Wed 1 Aug 2018

dear Bob,

probably not the right place, but I'd like to share our latest provisional ToC on a eco-system for sustainable and fair production of 'material' necessities,

it seems to me related to open apps as well,

so for info:


Title: Turning Externalities into Internalities



Subtitle: Is it possible to produce for human needs without externalities


Chapter 1: Introduction and Context


  1. The emergence of post-subordinate autonomous workers: the role of labor mutuals and platform cooperatives in the commons economy (the blockchain economy as a tool for contributory cognitive labor)

** crypto economy as a re-balancing of power between labor and capital

** crypto economy as network-dominant economy beyond corporate and state power

** role of labour mutuals

  1. Value in the Commons: a summary of previous findings (value sovereignty, transvestment stragegies, reverse cooptation of capital for the commons)

  2. Evaluating the Emergence of the Crypto Economy from the point of view of the commons (mobilizing competency networks for common goals; towards commons-based DAO’s ?) so

** critique of market totalitarianism (leviathan, hobbes and gaia)

** crypto as sovereignity of the corporate class vs sovereignty of civil society (need to disentangle both) (five scenario’s of manski)

** distinguishing distrlbuted ledgers from the blockchain (explain ledgers and DLT’s), also in relation to trust

** rebalancing capital and labor for cognitive production: learning from the token economy

** transforming the token economy for the commons (in detail, what the shift entails, f.e. From competitive to cooperative games, from smart contracts, to ostrom contracts)

** two kinds of economics (Polany’s distinction)

** scaling trust (big brother to little brother)

** from govt and corporate, third party coordination to autonomous network coordination

  1. The Role of Accounting in the Shift towards the Peer Production of Everything (accounting as mediation with the physical, bringing stigmergy to material production through open and shared supply chains, )

** history of ledgers ?

** explain 3 layer model

** explain functional governance transition

** local vs global (example from city graph 3.6)

  1. Solving the Problem of Externalities: towards an externalities-free mode of production ? (how can externalities be normalized as internalities in predistributive social distribution and regenerative ecological production)

Chapter 2: Evolutions in Accounting


  • Accounting for contributions (positive social)

** predistribution within commons

** basic income in society

  • Maintaining acceptable social distribution, i.e. relative equality in the distribution of value (negative social)

** from redistribution to predistribution

** acceptable inequalities

** learning from the past (hunter-gatherers, ancient democracies, medieval communes)

  • Respecting the Doughnut (negative ecological): how to stay within planetary boundaries while providing for human needs

  • Thermo-dynamic Accounting or: biophysical accountability (positive ecological): accessing thermo-dynamic flows in open and shared supply chains


Chapter 3: The Emerging toolbox


  • Supply chain projects: Provenance, Oxchain, Open Motors, Wikifactory, Envianta ?

  • Distributed ledgers Holochain): going beyond extractive blockchains

** distributed ledgers as the open and shared supply chains

** tokens for valuing non-mercantile value

** generative finance: social and ecological

  • Ostrom Contracts ? (David Dao): smart contracts for commons-based DAOs

  • REA Accounting for Eco-systems (from corporate to ecosystemic open and shared supply chains)

  • Ethical current-sees? Monitoring flows and rewarding contributions: The Economic Space Agency: mutualizing investment, risk-taking and speculation (commons-based derivatives for financing future common production), Faircoin/Commoncoin + learning from labor allocation in intentional communities (Allen Butcher’s work)

  • Tokens for Regenerativity (Regen’’s Ecological State Protocols; circular financing of regenerative practices)

  • Impact Accounting through the Common Good Economy

  • Global Thresholds and Allocations for biophysical accountability (the Reporting 3.0 framework)

  • Large scale governance (Daostack’s holographic governance)

  • Designing Cooperative games instead of competitive games (RChain) ?

  • DAO’s for natural agents: the Terra0 project for augmented forests

  • ? Trustlines Network ?

BH

Bob Haugen Mon 30 Jul 2018

We just got a few new members, could be from that Open Coop thing that @mayel presented at, and I think @olisb was one of the organizers.

New people, maybe you would like to introduce yourselves and explain what interests you here?

PJ(

That's excellent news @christopheparot1! Looking forward to e-meeting you there!

CP

Christophe Parot Wed 16 May 2018

Hi Pamela, I have signed up with progressive coders

PJ(

Hey all! My name is Pamela and I'm a co-director at Progressive Coders Network. ProgCode is a radically inclusive all-volunteer non-profit tech/activist collaborative of 1.4k members and growing! Members contribute a variety of tech and non-tech skills and experiences to bring open source projects from ideation to implementation. Our roots are in the Bernie 2016 campaign and our mission is to remove or reduce the influence of big money in politics by supporting the creation of open source tools to empower the grassroots movement. In short, we want to democratize democracy. :slight_smile: Here's a bit more about our origin story and work.

Like @wouter, I joined OAE at the invitation of @olisb to continue discussions on the making of the CommonsCloud. Otherwise just very interested in learning what low-to-no cost replacements for Google Suites other co-ops are using/working on and if there is any way the ProgCode ecosystem can assist!

LW

Liaizon Wakest Thu 10 May 2018

Have been meaning to do an introduction for a while. My name is Liaizon Wakest. I grew up on an anarchist commune in Wisconsin. When I was 17 and moved into a housing coop called Nottingham Coop in Madison, WI and lived there for a year. Thats probably the most direct relationship I have had to coops. Since then I lived for 4 years in Silicon Valley, then 4 years in NYC and now I have been living in New Orleans for the past 3 years. The last year and a half I have been mainly researching and trying to understand a wide scope of decentralization efforts / tech autonomy projects and get as much aquatinted with such fields as I can, mainly to figure out how I can best use my time and knowledge to move forward the world I want to see exist. I have spent most of my adult life working as an artist/designer/nomad. Have lots of diverse skills but wouldn't say I have really specialized in anything. You can find links to various social channels I have a presence on at http://wake.st

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 10 May 2018

We just had a long discussion about the diffs between common vocabularies and protocols and APIs, and I think ended up with something like:
* APIs and data formats define a vocabulary and at least the protocols for component interactions. Even better if the APIs themselves are standardized.
* One diff is that you can use the same vocabulary with more than one API, and some higher level protocols will be required that are not very expressible in an API.
* But there's a big intersection in the Venn diagram.

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Thu 10 May 2018

Oh, sounds cool what you guys do.
Are you in production in any city already or not yet ?

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Thu 10 May 2018

Hi Bob,

Thank you so much for this detailed add on which did make sense to me. I fully agree with the idea that common protocols and vocabularies are key to build interoperable tools.

I'll follow what you guys are doing on the Open Coopératives Ecosystem. I'd be very interested to see this case and am also following what is happening on Coopaname's side.

With Startin'blox we are working on the very same principles (common vocabularies and protocols), but at a much lower level, that is how we express the data and communicate it through are APIs. We follow the Linked Data guidelines from the W3C on this.

CC(

Most clients are not members, to join clients (or workers, investors or partners) have to buy shares, see https://www.webarchitects.coop/join

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 10 May 2018

Thought this was interesting https://www.webarchitects.coop/rules

Do all your clients automatically become members of the cooperative, or do they need to do something special to become members?

CC(

Hi, I'm from a small multi-stakeholder co-op in the UK and we offer managed instances of things like Nextcloud, see our hosting page and much of the code to deploy these is on our co-op GitLab server at https://git.coop/ and I'm interested in co-operating on this stuff.

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 10 May 2018

Welcome @wouter ! Unfortunately, Loomio hijacked the first 3 of your links.. Here are some unhijacked versions:
* http://freeknowledge.eu/
* https://ca.goteo.org/project/commonscloud
* http://www.femprocomuns.cat/

(Let's see if they stay unhijacked after I post...)

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Thu 10 May 2018

Hi, I'm Wouter from the Free Knowledge Institute. Today I joined this group, as Oliver Sylvester-Bradley encouraged me to, and I'm glad to see so many familiar faces :-) After some 15 years in the field of free-as-in-freedom software and knowledge, this year we are going live with the CommonsCloud (finalising our campaign at Goteo), and we're pretty excited about it. It's challenging, but we've set up femProcomuns SCCL(still just in Catalan, sorry), as the consumer-collaborator-worker coop in BCN and this project is co-produced by an alliance of 10 collectives with a track record working on freedom, commons and cooperative ownership. Here is our post on the making of. We have lots to learn, share and improve. In particular with other collectives working on decentralised clouds for commons oriented ecosystems, with replicable code-knowledge-discourse-sustainability models. We will be joining the Open.Coop conference in July in London. Apart from this group, anyone interested in CommonsCloud specifically might want to join our int'l working group mailing list.

BH

Bob Haugen Sun 6 May 2018

If you want to get more deeply mathematical and theoretical about interop, check out https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2018/05/06/compositionality/

BH

Bob Haugen Sun 6 May 2018

I am not very sure how this we make our softwares interoperable ?
Could you elaborate a bit more on that ?

I can elaborate a little. Right now it''s more theory than practice, and you know what that means...

Some of us think that using a common vocabulary and common protocols will help interoperability for domains that have such things. Since some of us work with economic networks, we have been working on a common vocab and protocols for them in the ValueFlows project, which is based a lot on REA.

Some of us are also engaged in a project in FairCoop and possibly some other groups to develop what the devs are calling an Open Cooperative Ecosystem. We'll be using the ValueFlows vocab and protocols and also some of Communecter's tools. If that project succeeds, it will be a proof of concept and also possibly a model.

@luandrovieira is doing a similar project in Moinho Brazil which you can read about in this Loomio discussion, and we're all talking to each other.

So we should have some results from practice this year.

Did that all make sense?

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Sun 6 May 2018

Hi Bob,

I did read all the links you shared. I happened to be on hollidays with Julien Dussard, who know you quite well from what I understood. We had a long discussion on the topic.

I also read the free chapter What is REA ? from Model-Driven Design Using Business Patterns.

So I think I have got the idea of REA now.
However I am not very sure how this we make our softwares interoperable ?
Could you elaborate a bit more on that ? There is something I am still missing I believe.

JL

Julien Lecaille Sat 5 May 2018

Good to see people from HappyDev here.

Communecter is a french mapping tool/open-source citizen network with a strong dimension of interoperability. It is part of the commons movement
Interopérability : http://co.tools/interop
Documentation : https://wiki.communecter.org
The platform itself : http://communecter.org

BH

Bob Haugen Sat 5 May 2018

Here's https://www.valueflo.ws/

REA is a good model for economic networks, as you can read here: https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Resource-Event-Agent_Model

Christophe Combelles of Coopaname did some experiments with REA here: https://bitbucket.org/ccomb/rea

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Sat 5 May 2018

Indeed, I am quite close to Stéphane Veyer who carried this reflexion as far as I know in Coopaname. I know very little about REA and ValueFlows myself but I would be happy to dig into it if you provide me with cool material on the subject. In the meantime I'll DuckDuckGo around and see what I manage to grab on my own.

I fully subscribe to your conclusion. We really try hard to converge as much as possible, at least with Coopaname and several similar initiatives.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 4 May 2018

We've had conversations with all of those groups.

Communecter is a regularly participant here, represented by @tiborkatelbach among others.

A couple of people in Coopaname have experimented with REA, which is the ontology behind ValueFlows, which in turn is one of the keys that some of us think will allow flocks of tiny apps to coordinate themselves as an ecosystem. Those conversations have mostly happened in emails where I have been involved, but I am sure other media are used more intimately.

@michelbauwens1 who stops in here now and then is connected to Smart and possible others of these groups.

So, all told, a lot of groups in France and thereabouts that have potentials to come together into something really amazing!

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Fri 4 May 2018

I am impressed by this question ! You seem to know the ecosystem quite well.

Short answer : around 20 people are involved in both Coopaname and Happy Dev. Both structures are in very good term are share a common vision of empowering freelancers

Long answer : Coopaname helps freelancers by providing them with the social status of "employee", which means better social coverage and financial aid from the government if you end up unemployed later on.
Happy Dev helps freelancers to organize themselves and mutualize some services such as a brand, a juridical service, an administrative service, some open source tools, etc. All this happens in a decentralized way, meaning the services are provided by several different organizations owned by the freelancers themselves.

Smart is a Coopaname like. I know them mostly through Coopaname, but way less than Coopaname so I am afraid I can't be more precise here. They are doing a great job at scaling as far as I know, I really respect that in their initiative.

Communecter I didn't know about them.
I hope this answer clarifies a little bit what we do.
If it doesn't, please ask again and I'll do better 🙂

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 4 May 2018

Thanks, @alexandrebourlier1 - I see Coopaname in one of those presentations. What's the relationship and difference between Happy Dev, Coopaname, and http://smartbe.be ? Are they all related in some way?

How about Communecter?

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Fri 4 May 2018

I do. The links about about dev are all in french so far.
I am very sorry about this, we are internationalizing for a few months only, and we haven't proper english material yet. Here we go :

Happy Dev :
- http://happy-dev.fr/manifeste
- https://zevillage.net/future-of-work/happy-dev-federation-freelances/
- https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OiT8mKo87O61eFZtFuy2KH9YFWPwlJRu
- https://vimeo.com/261706321

Startin'blox :
- https://git.happy-dev.fr/happy-dev/ldp-display
- https://drive.google.com/open?id=14ZeeJ-QDbUqqcEZryFlKILTBgS5sESJN

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 4 May 2018

Welcome, @alexandrebourlier1 ! Got anything published yet about Happy Dev and Startin'blox that we could look at? They both seem very interesting.

AB

Alexandre Bourlier Fri 4 May 2018

Hi everyone,

I co-founded Happy Dev, a french, soon to be European cooperative network of freelancers.

We are now launching an open source framework called Startin'blox, that allows to easily build interoperable platforms.

It feels the right place to talk about the topic, so here I am. I am very happy to see those reasonings are shared and debated here for several years. I'd love to learn about your experience and if I can help in any way, I will as well as the Startin'blox team

LF

Lynn Foster Thu 3 May 2018

Hi new members! Please feel free to introduce yourselves here, look around, ask questions! We're fairly loosely organized around here, so it is not always easy to see how to fit in, but we're glad to help! Or, we hope you feel comfortable to start something new too....

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 3 Apr 2018

Reminder: New members, introduce yourselves (if you like)? Some interesting collaborations have spun out of conversations here. :wave:

TK

Tibor Katelbach Wed 14 Mar 2018

Hi all
It could be an opportunity to map and reference all these great communities
we can then sort out needs , offers, competence, services, tools they all have
wdyt ?

SG

Simon Grant Wed 14 Mar 2018

Hi Michel! As you are in Belfast, do you think there is the appetite in Northern Ireland for an initiative similar to P2P Scotland, which may want to coordinate under something like Commons Transition UK?

MB

Michel Bauwens Wed 14 Mar 2018

Dear Vicenzo,

Peter Doran from Belfast, where I'm staying right now, might be interested in your work, so I put him in cc,

thanks a lot for the details an links, which I will check,

Michel

D

Draft Tue 13 Mar 2018

I cant find the subject :/

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Tue 13 Mar 2018

Good idea.

Maybe you can be interested in the topic of the contemplative commons group (in this ECA space).

In the Open App Ecosystem blog I have just answered to a message from Michel Bauwens (not new I am afraid) adding a link to a recent paper on the JOPP.

BTW, Donald McCown and I are planning one retreat in Milan next July but we will be happy to share our experience wioth others.

Best,

Enzo

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Tue 13 Mar 2018

Hi Michel,

actually I am getting into the matter of the Holochainand I appreciate their approach.
About the contemplative stuff, I co-created with Zach Walsh a group in this ECA space and I recently published with Don McCown a non academic paper on the #11 - City of the Journal of Peer Production
tThe link is http://peerproduction.net/editsuite/issues/issue-11-city/experimental-format/life-skills-for-peer-production-walking-together-through-a-space-of-not-knowing/
It's the mindfulness approach revisited within a non individualistic, non brain-centered perspective. In one word, an enactive perspective.
My project is to develop en enactive ecosystem based on this approach. We - with Don and others - are just looking for a software developer who wishes to share this perspective.

Best,
Enzo

D

Draft Tue 13 Mar 2018

It's already happening I think :D @olisb wants to create a workshop during the open 2018 event : https://2018.open.coop/ about open app ecosystem : how to create it all together ?

I'm gonna create a thread about it.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Tue 13 Mar 2018

My main aim is to share the idea that life skills are fundamental for us as human beings. We can deal better with personal and collective suffering of any kind. And we can be more creative in general, including the object of this blog. Maybe one day we can plan a one-day or two-days workshop in which digital skills in software co-design are intertwined with contemplative practices. I am ready.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Tue 13 Mar 2018

Ok. It's fine. We submitted a proposal just today and we will have some more time for a talk. I wait for Vasiilis for some possible timeslots.

MB

Michel Bauwens Fri 9 Mar 2018

wonderful to have people like you onboard!

MB

Michel Bauwens Fri 9 Mar 2018

hi vincenzo, I am copying Vasilis Niaros who coordinates our research cooperations and can help coordinate this skype,

are there any date limits, just to know as my March agenda is chockful

Michel

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 9 Mar 2018

Hi Luandro
By “geographically oriented tools” do you mean oriented for local communities? That’s exactly what I’m aiming for, and would love to propositions for the first experiments.

yep with geographical front ends check it out on communecter.org ( http://communecter.org )
it also runs on mobile
It would be amazing to think how we could connect it with an ssb server
for all the great reasons you listed in your introduction
we discussed it a bit with Piet from Protozoa.nz, but it's something we'll soon get into
so if it can help, don't hesitate
I’ve been tutoring a young girl in the village I live. It’s been a big challenge since she has 0 computer and english knowledge, but it’s awesome to see her slowly progress. Ideally I would like to build a boilerplate that would be easy enough for people from the community themselves to create the applications, based on their needs.

excellent, we are in the process of modularising everything to the smallest possible features
that will al work in standalone and interconnected mode
instead of a big collections of fixed together features

LV

Luandro Vieira Fri 9 Mar 2018

Thank you @bobhaugen @lynnfoster and @tiborkatelbach for the warm welcome :slight_smile:

I've been diving deep into mmmmm, which is the mobile SSB client, for the past week. I'm almost done extracting out the very basics in order to make it easily forkable, and in order to add Dat, which is essential to complement full p2p apps. There's still some work to do but you can check out progress here.

By "geographically oriented tools" do you mean oriented for local communities? That's exactly what I'm aiming for, and would love to propositions for the first experiments. I've been tutoring a young girl in the village I live. It's been a big challenge since she has 0 computer and english knowledge, but it's awesome to see her slowly progress. Ideally I would like to build a boilerplate that would be easy enough for people from the community themselves to create the applications, based on their needs.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 9 Mar 2018

@luandrovieira brilliant and welcome , if you are interested we would love to think and propose a (multiple ) front end to your backend refexions :) we work on a very geographically oriented tools, We also worked on interoperability but still haven't connected to ssb and DAT, we are just starting to investigate that path.

LF

Lynn Foster Thu 8 Mar 2018

@luandrovieira indeed welcome! We can for sure use some help figuring out the backend infrastructure(s)! Your experience is super interesting, and you are way ahead of us in many ways.... :slight_smile:

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 8 Mar 2018

@luandrovieira ! Compadre! Warm welcome! I am so happy you joined this conversation!

LV

Luandro Vieira Thu 8 Mar 2018

Hi I'm Luandro, free person living in a quilombola village in a national park in the center of Brazil.

Around 6 years ago while still studying Cinema and Media in university I began to dream of applications which could assist decentralizing human civilized culture. To pursue this I started to code, which led me to realize that the web couldn't be the medium for such applications. Just a few years back I began on thinking of a self contained network that could contain these applications and be taken to an isolated culture, such as indigenous or quilombola villages. The idea being to get to them before the corporate web, and thus I learned about Secure Scuttlebot and Mesh networks, which seem to be the perfect infrastructure for these applications. Before joining SSB I thought I was a lonely anarchist hacker living in the woods dreaming of a free solar punk world. Now there are lots of people realizing this dream together with me, and I just feel like our utopia is not only possible, but it can be the future for anyone who choses. I'm happy to say that I live in my utopia, while helping to build it.

I'm currently working on setting up a mesh network of LibreRouters and Raspberry Pi's on the Moinho quilombola village, in Alto Paraíso de Goiás. I'm also working together with the SSB community to get a basic version of Ssb and Dat running on a mobile device, so that we can get a fully p2p network for the app ecosystem. I just learned about Open App Ecosystem on ssb thru @bobhaugen, and it is the dream I had 6 years ago coming to reality.

I hope to help out creating the backend infrastructure for the ecosystem with Ssb and Dat over a GraphQL layer for easy migration. Really glad to meet you all :)

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 8 Mar 2018

I've seen some interesting new members from the recent join requests. Please introduce yourselves? I know some of you have interesting stories to tell.

CS

Caroline Smalley Fri 23 Feb 2018

for we are all independently dependent on our interdependence. namaste

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 22 Feb 2018

@michelbauwens1 jf might also want to comment in this thread about Holo that @draft just started: https://www.loomio.org/d/SU1KiLVn/holo

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 22 Feb 2018

sharing what I am doing within a H2020 program called Co-City
Please do.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Thu 22 Feb 2018

Hi Michel: I remind you that we are still interested as Blockchain-UniTorino for a possible Skype meeting

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Thu 22 Feb 2018

Thank you Michel.

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Thu 22 Feb 2018

Hi Bob, first of all reading the available documentation and sharing what I am doing within a H2020 program called Co-City

MB

Michel Bauwens Thu 22 Feb 2018

and by the way vincenzo,

you may be interested in the material we have collated at

https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Spirituality

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 22 Feb 2018

Welcome, @vincenzogiorgino !

Many of the people here are interested in a collaborative commons economy. How do you see yourself participating?

MB

Michel Bauwens Thu 22 Feb 2018

I am copying J-F Noubel, who has been working around consciousness and cultural change for decades, lives in the gift economy, but is also one of the founders of the metacurrency, now 'holochain' project, and may have an interesting perspective for you,

note that the holochain does NOT commodify as the token economy does, but jf can explain,

I am not normally following this group, but the universe decided I should see this today,

Michel

VG

Vincenzo Giorgino Thu 22 Feb 2018

Hi! I am a sociologist and I am interested in contributing to a digital ecosystem based on distributed ledgers facilitating the collaborative commons economy. I am also a contemplative practitioner and I believe that a smart environment needs to be wise in order to be effective and coherent with its premises. So far, life skills can come into the picture as basic resources on which people can rely on. I am curious about the commodification/tokenization of attention skills, especially when they are part of commons-based proposals. It is a topic still unclear to me that I would like to understand better.

GC

Greg Cassel Sat 20 Jan 2018

^ That whole Commons Transition Primer may become my go-to introduction to commons & p2p networking principles for a general audience. I think @staccotroncoso and others have done great research, interpretive and explaining work.

I also hope it may spark added interest in Open Apps Ecosystem.

LF

Lynn Foster Sat 20 Jan 2018

Hey, this group got a mention on Commons Transition (P2PF), hat tip @gregorycassel

https://primer.commonstransition.org/1-short-articles/1-8-how-can-i-take-part-in-the-commons-transition

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 22 Dec 2017

Future responses in SSB.

SH

Steve Huckle Fri 22 Dec 2017

hmmm - not certain it's the right Tim - want to point me in the right direction, somehow?

SH

Steve Huckle Fri 22 Dec 2017

I think I may have found Tim, too :)