Loomio

A contract for the web

LM
Lander Meeusen Public Seen by 177

The goal of this website is to bring governments, citizens, companies and organisations together that agree with the principle of an open, free, privacy-friendly internet and want to engage in a deliberative process to make a formal social contract for the internet.

I think the Pirate Party should be part of this initiative and I propose we sign the principles, eventhough it's a bit late in the process. By signing, this is what we commit to:
"At this stage we have a set of 9 high level principles which we see as guiding stars towards building a full Contract for the web.
By signing up to these Principles, you agree that these 9 Principles are a reasonable starting point for a conversation regarding these issues.
Signatories to the Principles commit to engaging in the deliberative process towards shaping what these commitments will be.
We acknowledge different stakeholders have different capacity to engage, and have created a process that tries to accommodate for these needs and provides different engagement opportunities. We believe that since the web is for everyone, everyone should have the opportunity to engage in shaping the Contract.
Once the Contract is finalised, there will be a new process for companies, governments, CSOs and citizens to sign up to a set of more prescriptive requirements."
(https://contractfortheweb.org/about/)

The 9 principle can be found on the landing page of the website: https://contractfortheweb.org/

What do you think?

B

bobrappe Sun 3 Nov 2019

It is very nice. I could'nt find where to sign

LM

Lander Meeusen Sun 3 Nov 2019

You can sign on the homepage, underneath the 9 principles.

You can sign as an individual or as an organisation. I propose we sign this as "Pirate Party Belgium". I wanted to know people's opinion about it and perhaps put it to a vote on this platform.

B

bobrappe Sun 3 Nov 2019

Ok

I am ready to vote on a plateform with our organisation.
Eugène Rappe
Envoyé depuis Yahoo Mail pour Android ( https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature )
Le dim., nov. 3, 2019 à 15:24, Lander Meeusen (Loomio)
notifications@loomio.org a écrit :

CC

Christophe Cop Mon 4 Nov 2019

I think we should support this, as in "we definitely need to support this".
If not as pirate party belgium, then Flanders, if not flanders, Antwerp. (but preferably as PPBE)

B

bonhivers Tue 5 Nov 2019

hy,

can i have Pirate in french !
thank'

Marianne Bonhivers
Rue du Tchêné 6A
5580 BELVAUX ROCHEFORT (Belgique)
Mobile: 0493/550803

Fixe :084/401942
marianneb191@gmail.com

LM

Lander Meeusen Tue 5 Nov 2019

[J'écris en anglais, parce que mon français n'est pas si bien. Si dessus tu trouves une traduction electronique, faite avec deepl.com. Je sais que la qualité n'est pastoujours très bien, mais j''espère que tu peux comprendre la plupart.]

L'objectif de ce site Web est de rassembler les gouvernements, les citoyens, les entreprises et les organisations qui souscrivent au principe d'un Internet ouvert, libre et respectueux de la vie privée et qui souhaitent s'engager dans un processus délibératif pour conclure un contrat social formel pour Internet.

Je pense que le Parti pirate devrait participer à cette initiative et je propose que nous signions les principes, même si c'est un peu tard dans le processus. En signant, c'est ce à quoi nous nous engageons :
"A ce stade, nous disposons d'un ensemble de 9 principes de haut niveau que nous considérons comme des étoiles directrices pour la construction d'un Contrat complet pour le web.
En adhérant à ces Principes, vous acceptez que ces 9 Principes constituent un point de départ raisonnable pour une conversation sur ces questions.
Les signataires des Principes s'engagent à s'engager dans le processus de délibération en vue de définir ce que seront ces engagements.
Nous reconnaissons que les différents intervenants ont des capacités d'engagement différentes, et nous avons créé un processus qui tente de répondre à ces besoins et qui offre différentes possibilités d'engagement. Nous croyons que puisque le Web est pour tout le monde, tout le monde devrait avoir l'opportunité de s'engager dans l'élaboration du Contrat.
Une fois le Contrat finalisé, il y aura un nouveau processus pour les entreprises, les gouvernements, les OSC et les citoyens pour signer un ensemble d'exigences plus normatives".
(https://contractfortheweb.org/about/)

Le principe 9 se trouve sur la page d'accueil du site web : https://contractfortheweb.org/

Qu'est-ce que t'en penses ?

FD

Florence D. Wed 6 Nov 2019

Bonjour Marianne, nos discussions loomio sont publiques et peuvent être lues par n importe qui, tu viens d'y balancer tes données personnelles. Pourrais tu modifier ton message ?

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 6 Nov 2019

Thanks for the suggestion @landermeeusen

I like the 9 principles mentioned in the document (which can be read in French or in Dutch. As far as I can tell, they fit to our own principles.

I do have a few issues, more related to the process actually :
- what stage is the process in? I couldn't really find it, apparently they asked for feedback (through a... Google Doc...) but it seems this stage is over. So signing now might actually mean agreeing not just with the principles but with the whole contract?
- are the signatures open to political groups? Maybe it would be relevant to ask about it (we might be currently discussing this without even having the right to do so, in the same way we were not allowed to sign the Public Money, Public Code petition)
- the list of signatures is available on the bottom of this page, so I'm surprised to find Google, Microsoft, Facebook... amongst other more friendly signatures. We certainly don't have the same vision of them of the web, so I don't know what to make of that information.

(FR traduction DeepL)

Merci pour la suggestion @landermeeusen

J'aime les 9 principes mentionnés dans le document. Pour autant que je sache, ils correspondent à nos propres principes.

J'ai quelques problèmes, plus liés au processus en fait.. :

  • à quelle étape en est le processus ? Je n'ai pas vraiment pu le trouver, apparemment ils ont demandé un feedback (via un... Google Doc...) mais il semble que cette étape soit terminée. Donc, signer maintenant pourrait en fait signifier être d'accord non seulement avec les principes, mais avec l'ensemble du contrat ?
  • les signatures sont-elles ouvertes aux groupes politiques ? Il serait peut-être pertinent de poser des questions à ce sujet (nous en discutons peut-être actuellement sans même avoir le droit de le signer, de la même manière que nous n'avons pas été autorisés à signer la pétition sur les fonds publics, le code public).
    • la liste des signatures est disponible en bas de cette page, donc je suis surpris de trouver Google, Microsoft, Facebook.... parmi d'autres signatures plus proches de nous. Nous n'avons certainement pas la même vision d'eux du Web, alors je ne sais pas quoi faire de cette information.
LM

Lander Meeusen Thu 7 Nov 2019

In response:
1)What do I commit to by signing?
At this stage we have a set of 9 high level principles which we see as guiding stars towards building a full Contract for the web.
By signing up to these Principles, you agree that these 9 Principles are a reasonable starting point for a conversation regarding these issues.
Signatories to the Principles commit to engaging in the deliberative process towards shaping what these commitments will be.
We acknowledge different stakeholders have different capacity to engage, and have created a process that tries to accommodate for these needs and provides different engagement opportunities. We believe that since the web is for everyone, everyone should have the opportunity to engage in shaping the Contract.
Once the Contract is finalised, there will be a new process for companies, governments, CSOs and citizens to sign up to a set of more prescriptive requirements. (https://contractfortheweb.org/about/)

2) I don't know. I have sent an e-mail to ask.

3)I agree. I feel Google and FB are using this as a whitewashing-operation, but on the other hand I also see GitHub and other free-internet-groups in the list. Along with a few local and national governments.

LM

Lander Meeusen Fri 8 Nov 2019

Update: they indeed a final version of the contract. I received this e-mail:

Dear Lander Meeusen,

Many thanks for your email. It's actually quite timely. We are moving to the next phase, which is having the stakeholders endorse the final document.

Over the past year, we have turned the 9 founding principles into a global plan of action to protect a free and open web that is truly for everyone.

We’ll launch the Contract for the Web at the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Berlin on November 26. But we wanted to share it with you early and ask, will you be one of the first stakeholders to endorse the Contract?

By endorsing the Contract for the Web, you agree to support the initiative, promote its objectives, and uphold its principles and clauses. You'll be expected to demonstrate your organization’s progress towards implementation and ongoing adherence to the Contract to remain a named endorser. Read the Contract and endorse on behalf of your organisation by November 19th.

If you’re planning to be at IGF 2019 in Berlin, we’d love you to join us to celebrate at our launch event. Please RSVP by November 19th to be added to the guestlist. Space is very limited, hence this invitation in non-transferrable.

We are glad to help, so please let us know if you have any comments or questions!

Kind regards,
Juan

LM

Lander Meeusen Sun 10 Nov 2019

The only tricky part is this little sentence: "You'll be expected to demonstrate your organization’s progress towards implementation and ongoing adherence to the Contract to remain a named endorser."

This sounds like paperwork to me. And I'm under the impression that the Pirates, although intellecualy and ideologically very strong, don't have a lot of time, manpower and energy for this kind of efforts.

I would go through and sign it, though. the worst thing that can happen in my opinion, is that if at any point in the future we don't have time for the 'paperwork', we stop being an official endorser.

IB

Ilja Baert Sun 10 Nov 2019

-> What stage is the process?
"600 of you responded to the survey and your feedback informed the final Contract for the Web text — which we will launch on November 26 at the Internet Governance Forum in Berlin." Sooooo, I guess we'll have to wait untill 26/11 :grin:

-> Are the signatures open to political groups?
I'm seeing at least one congressman and one minister, but no parties (yet), so unclear atm to me too.

-> so I'm surprised to find Google, Microsoft, Facebook... amongst other more friendly signatures
It was started by Tim Berners-Lee[2]. My guess is that they really see it big. ATM I'll interpret this as; For FB and rest this is free marketing, for Tim this is a way of having the big players on board.

[1] https://contractfortheweb.org/2019/11/06/how-public-voices-shaped-the-contract-for-the-web/
[2] https://contractfortheweb.org/2018/11/05/join-us-and-fight-fortheweb/

IB

Ilja Baert Sun 10 Nov 2019

  1. If we sign as PPBE (which atm I'd be for), we have to fill in a form[1]. We'll need to decide what to fill in and who fills it in. The one I think would create most discussion would be "Why does your organisation support the Contract for the Web?".
  2. The contract is ready as far as I understand and will be presented 26/11
  3. As @vanecx said, it's not sure if they allow political groups to sign it (although I do see at least one congresman and one minister).

From this, I propose the following:
1. We mail contract@webfoundation.org from a general ppbe mailaddress (I guess we use contact@pirateparty.be because that is the one listed on our website).
2. We think about what we want to add to the form. For this I made https://pad.parley.be/p/contract-for-the-web
3. We don't really have a good way of making such general decisions yet, but one thing we wanted to experiment with was a combination of consensus both on loomio as well as the labs. I feel we have it here, but it hasn't been brought up on the lab. Since the contract wont be presented before 26/11 I think it's not a bad idea to wait until then and talk about it next lab of 30/11 (I made the suggestion on the pad https://pad.parley.be/p/Piratelab2019-November )

We don't have to wait for that to send the mail asking if we can join as a political party, so the question then is who can and will sent it?

Edit: I notice on the form that there is no choice for a political party. There is however an "On behalf of my civil society organisation". Can we use that? (We should ask them in the mail.) Especially since ppbe isn't a registered party anyhow.

[1] https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfo3NnhGhg64vlcQmu3xrgIZYeAlc1u6mkUzUQOlRDtO3lXpw/viewform
[2] https://contractfortheweb.org/2019/11/06/how-public-voices-shaped-the-contract-for-the-web/

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 4 Dec 2019

They allow political groups to sign, I asked them and they replied clearly yes (apparently it was implied in their answer to Lander, but I read it again now and it wasn't clear in my opinion).


[FR] Ils permettent aux groupes politiques de signer, je leur ai demandé et ils ont répondu clairement oui (apparemment c'était déjà dit dans leur réponse à Lander, mais je l'ai relue maintenant et ce n'était pas explicite à mon avis).

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 4 Dec 2019

About my issue with signing a Contract that Facebook and Google also signed, there was this, published last days : https://www.liberation.fr/debats/2019/12/02/on-ne-sauvera-pas-le-web-en-dinant-avec-ses-assassins_1766848

"On attendait du fondateur de la promesse émancipatrice du Web autre chose qu’une molle ambition contractuelle qui serve de clause de bonne conscience à des entreprises prédatrices de nos libertés et de nos droits. On attendait de Tim Berners-Lee qu’il continue de désigner les coupables, et non qu’il leur fournisse un alibi commode. Car tant que la table des négociations se trouvera dans la salle des marchés, le Web continuera de mourir."

Quick DeepL translation : "We expected from the founder of the emancipatory promise of the Web something other than a soft contractual ambition that serves as a clause of good conscience for companies predatory of our freedoms and rights. Tim Berners-Lee was expected to continue to point the finger at the perpetrators, not to provide them with a convenient alibi. Because as long as the negociation table is in the trading room, the Web will continue to die"

About the organizations that already signed : I don't see EDRI, Quadrature du Net, Framasoft, Free Software Foundation... actually, except the Open Knowledge Foundation, I'd say I never heard of any of the other digital rights organizations listed. So do they just sign for their own visibility? There is even a "bike-hostel.info" signature... :/

(just a detail for @Lander Meeusen : GitHub has been bought by Microsoft a few months ago, but even before this buying it was already a problem by being a centralized place with lot of power, so I wouldn't put them on our side of the issue)

LM

Lander Meeusen Thu 5 Dec 2019

Thanks for this useful info, Renaud! I guess it's not a good idea to sign then.

IB

Ilja Baert Fri 6 Dec 2019

Quadrature du Net and Framasoft aren't big organisations either. They may be well known in France, but for most people they aren't known. I also don't think they have the resources to snoop the web for such projects and make a founded decision on whether to support or not. FSF is all about software freedom, so unless the contract explicitly states that online service providers should have 100% FLOSS stacks, I don't see them sign this as this.

Two that I do know are EFF, which I do believer is an organisation we can trust and duckduckgo about whom I'm conflicted, but at least give benefit of the doubt.

Anyhow, I don't think we should blow of a project just because some problematic actors claim to support it. Microsoft says they "love open source", that doesn't mean we should stop supporting floss. I do agree that it can be seen as red flags.

For me important questions are:

  1. Do we agree with the intent of the project (this can be the intent that has been made explicit, or a hidden agenda we believe the project may have)

  2. Do we agree with how the project is run

  3. Do we agree with the content of the contract

I think the article you shared is about either intent (was the project intended to bring FB and such on board) or how it's run (if this wasn't the intent, why are they there). And even then we should see if we agree with the sentiment of the article or not.

I'll see if I can find the time this weekend to look deeper into it, but ATM I'm still leaning to signing it.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Sun 8 Dec 2019

https://ga.pp-international.net/t/endorsement-of-contract-for-the-web/184

Pirate Parties International just agreed this afternoon during their General Assembly to endorse the Contract for the Web.

LM

Lander Meeusen Mon 9 Dec 2019

That seems like something worth sharing on the facebook page and othrr channels. We could share he news with a link to this discussion so people can see how he belgian piratez think about it. Good publicity for this forum as well, which is less accessible than fb. (Or at least less accessed.)

LM

Lander Meeusen Mon 9 Dec 2019

Is there a report of the meeting and who voted and how?

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Mon 9 Dec 2019

I can't tell 100% for sure, but as far as I know, this was the process :

  • A delegate (Gregory Engels from Germany) posted on Dec, 4th on PPI's forum the motion to be voted : https://ga.pp-international.net/t/endorsement-of-contract-for-the-web/184 (there seems to be no discussion)

  • It was included in the agenda of the GA, the delegate presented the motion (it can be seen here : https://youtu.be/gskhg4KIRXo?t=22518 at 6h15min18sec), no questions were asked, and it was unanimously approved by the delegates present at that time

    (which means that, as far as I know, there has been no debate at all about why sign it, why not sign it etc)