Loomio
November 19th, 2013 11:38

Associate Requests

Pirate Praveen
Pirate Praveen Public Seen by 976

Those who want to be an Associate can add their requests here. You have to publicly state your acceptance of the constitution (http://pirates.org.in/constitution)

Associates needs only accepting the constitution. If you disagree with any of the points in the constitution, we can discuss it here as well.

If you are an associate for at least 6 months and at least 2 members know about your work (they have to vouch for you), you can request to be a member here -> https://www.loomio.org/d/gmu9B3YH

More details about rights of associates and members is specified in the constitution.

Next Steps


  1. Please introduce yourself here -> https://www.loomio.org/d/4Cpz3YGn/ after applying and

  2. join this sub group (so its easy to track associates) -> https://www.loomio.org/g/zINlUo6f/indian-pirates-associates (and any other sub groups that excites you).

Kannan V M

Kannan V M November 30th, 2019 16:21

I prefer to redact that line from constitution as it is not a goal.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen November 30th, 2019 15:49

Propose a change in wording. I guess it was there from the original draft, no one objected to it till now.

Kannan V M

Kannan V M November 30th, 2019 15:12

I have disagreement in the second goal mentioned in the constitution, which says "engaging with young and educated citizen". It should be an inclusive statement.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 2nd, 2019 13:31

Welcome on board!

Tanzeem Mohammad Basheer

Tanzeem Mohammad Basheer April 2nd, 2019 06:46

I Tanzeem MB have read and understood the Constitution of Indian Pirates. I agree with the Constitution and would like to be Associate Member. I am inclined towards swatantra software/ hardware and promote the free software movement. I've started a matrix room SHRUG- swatantra Hardware Respecting users group for promotion of RYF devices. Presently a group member has started doing building blocks for Enterprise level. applications. Other major activiteis: Organized Install fest at Thitruvananthapuram in 2017, organized software freedom day in 2018 at CDIT.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 2nd, 2019 14:05

@utkarshgupta welcome!

Utkarsh Gupta

Utkarsh Gupta February 2nd, 2019 13:33

Read the constitution and the manifesto and loved it.
I totally agree with them, too.
Willing to join in the same.

MG

Mayank Goel February 4th, 2018 18:05

Yeah, I agree to the points in the constitution. Would like to join.

Mr.Lion

Mr.Lion October 31st, 2017 20:46

thank you :)

MJS

michael john sinclair. October 24th, 2017 19:12

This is great that new members are joining^

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 24th, 2017 19:02

@smithai @gauravsitlani @mrlion welcome on board!

Mr.Lion

Mr.Lion October 23rd, 2017 12:02

hi I have read constitution of Indian Pirates , and I do agree on those points an want to join :slight_smile:

GS

Gaurav Sitlani July 29th, 2017 15:13

Hi everyone my name is Gaurav Sitlani.
I have read the pirate constitution and the manifesto.
I totally abide by it and extend my gratitude towards it.
I will help and support in best way possible to spread and campaign for it.

Smith_ai

Smith_ai May 11th, 2017 09:01

hey folks, i have been not in direct touch with the pirate movement in India until recently. But have keenly watched its stewardship as publicly as one could do.

So far, i think the constitution framed for india pirate movement, have seen a critical evolution leveraged on direct democracy.

i would like to be an associate, with the current state of dynamics in the community, i believe democratic and cooperative principles are seriously evaluated constantly, without derailing to technocratic/oligarchic/plutocratic hell holes.

i am interested in studying geography, socio-economic-political, transport, food, communication networks. it would be really progressive if could able to help frame a mechanism and policy i learned in alternative economic models and other similar stuff, in promulgating the directive principles & goals stated through the articles and sections in the constitution. :thumbsup:

Akash Prajapati

Akash Prajapati May 5th, 2017 13:00

I Akash Bhagwandas Prajapati accept and agree the constitution of the pirate party and would like to join the pirate party .

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 27th, 2017 03:18

Welcome on board fellow Pirate!

Shamil

Shamil April 26th, 2017 08:48

I, Muhammed Shamil K, have read and understood the constitution of Indian Pirates and agree to it. I would like to join IP as an associate.

DU

[deactivated account] April 4th, 2017 17:29

It has been more than a year spent as an associate member of the party and I do not think I have contributed nor think that I will be able to contribute to the party. Hence, I humbly request to resign from the primary membership of the party.

Ryan LM

Ryan LM December 10th, 2016 04:28

I, Ryan, have read, understood and agree to the constitution of Pirate Movement and would like to join the movement as an Associate.

Wingston

Wingston December 9th, 2016 12:28

I, Wingston , have read, understood and agree to the constitution of the Pirate Movement and would like to join the movement. But i do think you can figure out a better way to do this initiation than by a thread like this. i had to scroll for a while before it let me comment.

Abhijith B

Abhijith B September 24th, 2016 17:47

Oh! No! Thank You for pionting it out.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen September 24th, 2016 17:24

@abhijtihb welcome on board as an associate.

Btw, is the typo in your username intentional?

Abhijith B

Abhijith B September 24th, 2016 16:56

I am Abhijith B. I am from Palakkad, Kerala, India. I am currently working as a developer in Digital Freedom Foundation(dff.org.in) at Goregaon in Mumbai, Maharashtra, India. I am of the view that decentralization, democracy, collaboration, freedom and privacy are essential. I read the constitution and found that it agrees with my view. I agree with it and would like to join as an associate member.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen September 9th, 2016 03:30

@manoharelavarthi welcome on board as an associate.

@michaeljohnsinclai can you start a separate thread for this proposal?

MJS

michael john sinclair.
Agree
September 8th, 2016 17:28

i agree

MJS

michael john sinclair. started a proposal September 8th, 2016 17:27

World Pirates Closed 7:02pm - Sunday 11 Sep 2016

If you agree with becoming a Pirate, Join as a Planet Member first. with no borders?

Results
Agree - 1
Abstain - 0
Disagree - 0
Block - 0
1 people have voted (0%)
Manohar Elavarthi

Manohar Elavarthi September 8th, 2016 17:19

I agree with the constitution of the Pirate Movement and would like to join.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen May 24th, 2016 06:14

@anandj1 welcome on board!

Anand J

Anand J May 24th, 2016 05:22

I, Anand J, have read, understood and agree to the constitution of Pirate Movement and would like to be associated with the movement.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen May 23rd, 2016 08:36

@mahirbinfarooque welcome on board! Participate in sub groups and discussions, spread pirate ideas in your circle and bring more people here.

Mahir Bin Farooque

Mahir Bin Farooque May 23rd, 2016 06:10

I Mahir Bin Farooque, have read, understood and agree to the constitution of Pirate Movement and would like to join.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen May 18th, 2016 06:01

@anisha , @riyazusman , @karthikeyanak , @vishnu , @jayaura welcome onboard. Take our ideas to people, and bring more people here. Join 'Associates' sub group and any other sub group that you find interesting.

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J May 15th, 2016 11:54

I've read through the constitution, it aligns with my vision of transparency and I accept the constitution. I wish to join as an associate.

V

Vishnu May 14th, 2016 19:46

I read the constitution and accept it. Wish to be an associate member.

Karthikeyan A K

Karthikeyan A K May 12th, 2016 11:40

Great constitution!!! Would like to become associate member of the party.

Riyaz Usman

Riyaz Usman May 12th, 2016 11:16

Accepting the constitution and applying for membership.

DU

[deactivated account] May 12th, 2016 09:46

Hey me @5hanth and @karthikeyanak are planning to meet up this Saturday and do the Lpg survey.. Would you like to come? How can we contact you

Anish Sheela

Anish Sheela April 23rd, 2016 16:29

I would like to apply for associate membership. I fully read constitution and agrees with it.

DU

[deactivated account] April 22nd, 2016 14:32

@ambadyanands @akhileshjamdar @pradeep and @shanthakumar are now Associates.

Welcome! You can apply for permanent membership after the mandatory 6 month waiting period which will serve as a mutual probation to ensure that the individual’s objectives are in alignment with the larger group.

DU

[deactivated account] April 21st, 2016 20:23

Hi @shanthakumar could you introduce yourself here too.. https://www.loomio.org/d/4Cpz3YGn/comment/993582

Shanthakumar

Shanthakumar April 21st, 2016 20:16

I, Shanthakumar, have read, understood and found that the constitution of Pirate Movement complies with my philosophical views and would like to join the movement as a Member.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 20th, 2016 08:47

A late announcement, @fayadfami and @arjun were accepted as permanent members.

@ambadyanands @pradeepmohandas @akhileshjamdar welcome!

DU

[deactivated account] April 19th, 2016 17:13

@akhileshjamdar could you introduce yourself here too - https://www.loomio.org/d/4Cpz3YGn/comment/993582

AJ

Akhilesh Jamdar April 19th, 2016 16:29

I've been observing for a while, but I guess I should start contributing.

I hereby accept the constitutiion of the Indian Pirates. (http://pirates.org.in/constitution/piratesin-constitution-3.0draft3.pdf)

DU

[deactivated account] April 19th, 2016 11:06

Hi @pradeepmohandas
Could you introduce yourself here for the rest of us? -
https://www.loomio.org/d/4Cpz3YGn/comment/993582

DU

[deactivated account] April 19th, 2016 10:39

I, Pradeep Mohandas, accept the constitution of the Indian Pirates and would like to be taken in as an Associate Member.

Vidyut

Vidyut April 19th, 2016 09:13

You don't need approval for initial application - but it will be to be an associate. No more initial members - those were only when forming the group - to get started, since no one had completed 6 months to be permanent.

Vidyut

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Bady

Bady April 19th, 2016 07:25

I, Ambady Anand S, hereby state that I accept Indian Pirates' Constitution.

You can read my intro here.

Fayad Fami

Fayad Fami February 4th, 2016 07:04

I would like to apply for Permanent membership.

As an associate member I've tried to build a perspective based on ideas outlined in constitution. I've taken part in discussions, co-authored an article on behalf of Indian Pirates and jointly maintain the Indian Pirates public Diaspora pod.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C January 31st, 2016 17:05

So, @vik has been accepted as a permanent member. Handling @arjun's request now.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen January 26th, 2016 02:10

@shrinivasant welcome to Indian Pirates. As the name suggests, Initial Members were created to kickstart (bootstrap) Indian Pirates. This type of membership were accepted only for first 6 months. You can be an associate member now and a permanent member later when you are active here. Join the associate members subgroup.

Shrinivasan T

Shrinivasan T January 26th, 2016 01:05

Got to know about indian pirates activities from @vik
Like to join as initial member.
Agreeing for the terms.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen January 21st, 2016 17:04

@vik @arjun great to see your interest, will process your request one by one (limitation of loomio, one proposal at a time per thread) https://www.loomio.org/d/bmptNclA/membership-approval

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen January 21st, 2016 16:58

@vidyut we have amended the constitution to allow any nationality to a permanent member. https://www.loomio.org/d/BNVip2MO/constitution-amendment-allow-voting-rights-to-any-nationality

DU

[deactivated account] January 21st, 2016 14:43

I'd like to become a permanent member too. Co-authored this https://medium.com/@piratesin/freebasics-a-free-ride-with-consequences-d7788a9480e1#.vemdkv93g
And am actively involved in promotion of IP ideas as well.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara January 21st, 2016 12:25

I would like to become a permanent member. I am actively involved with diasp.in and promotion of IP ideas generally.

Vidyut

Vidyut July 15th, 2015 10:44

@praveenarimbrathod Have we specified membership as limited to Indian citizens only? I can start a proposal, if so, but not sure citizenship is mandatory anywhere in our documents currently.

I don't think we are doing enough for the government to bother with us for a long long time yet and if we form a party, we'll have to form it from scratch, as people have joined here with "without" the intention to form party specified.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen July 15th, 2015 10:34

@vidyut @michaeljohnsinclai membership is not required for participating in discussions here. So we can already get ideas and observations. But we can still create and "Observing Members" or something similar if it helps recognize their participation level.

MJS

michael john sinclair. July 15th, 2015 10:08

It is the observing member status, they can not vote but can take part in discusions supporting Pirate ideas.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen July 15th, 2015 09:02

@vidyut you can start a vote on "Voting Members" sub group about allowing non-Indians to be members.

I see organizational collaboration as a better option for working with pirates from other countries. Since borders are a limitation for any real activity on the ground it will create different classes of memberships. Also it will be an easy excuse for government to malign us.

This group as such don't aim to transform to a political party, but if enough members of this collective feels we are are ready to form a political party, they can form a party that is separate from this collective.

Vidyut

Vidyut July 14th, 2015 17:31

@praveenarimbrathod just a thought. On another thread, we are discussing collaborations based on acceptance of the constitution. Why not, instead (or, as well), open membership to pirates from other countries? As long as the focus of Indian Pirates is on issues relevant to India, of course. We will learn much more about operating and moving forward AS PIRATES, than vague collaborations we don't have agendas for. There seems to be a need people feel for "fresh blood" so to say, which I think is a manifestation of need for fresh perspective. I imagine people with understanding of what pirate parties are will be able to make far more constructive participation that helps us anchor ourselves in our primary task, than extending our focus outward, outside the scope of our identity.

Vidyut

Vidyut July 14th, 2015 17:27

If we aren't using this group to be a political party, I don't see a need for limiting membership by nationality (Indian political parties cannot have members of any other nationality). As long as the subjects remain relevant to India. I have no problem if @michaeljohnsinclai seeks membership.

Maybe this should be put to the vote. What say, @praveenarimbrathod? Not sure if the constitution mentions nationality. If consensus is against it, then we should perhaps explicitly state Indian nationality only.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen July 13th, 2015 10:36

@michaeljohnsinclai you can continue participating here with your ideas and views, but it'd be better for us to keep the membership to only Indians or we will be accused of foreign conspiracy and it will adversely affect our reach.

MJS

michael john sinclair. July 13th, 2015 04:46

Do i have to live in India to become an Indian Piarate ? I am not of Indian Origin But I am starting to like this activity here?

Akshay

Akshay July 10th, 2015 01:59

I would like to be a permanent member. I was an initial member and took part in maintaining websites of diaspora yatra, pirates.org.in and diasp.in.

shine

shine April 23rd, 2015 13:59

  1. Is this discussion supposed to be happening in the "Membership Requests" thread?

  2. Have you guys seen thevenusproject.com? Leave politics. Heck, chuck the idea of money, altogether. You can live a very peaceful life. Watch Paradise or Oblivion on Youtube.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara April 23rd, 2015 08:30

Also - can we move this discussion to another thread or change it's title? "Membership request" is a bit confusing..

Vidyut

Vidyut April 23rd, 2015 08:29

Besides, as a Pirate party, I see no need to subscribe to existing and dysfunctional isms that restrict our scope. We can adopt views that make sense to us.

Someone thirsting for libertarianism should check out Sanjeev Sabhlok's sabhlokcity.com ( http://sabhlokcity.com ) - I think it is the most sustained libertarian effort in India. No point reinventing the wheel.

Vidyut

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vik@hamara

vik@hamara April 23rd, 2015 08:28

I think there is some distance in producing a taxation system that more accurately reflects a persons political preference. Most are happy with the overall concept of paying into a central fund to provide some basic services for all - but refinement of that system is required - a lot of money goes to waste and there is significant corruption - in most countries.

I still don't buy the lazy man arguments given so far though. I don't think a person can isolate themselves this way and still live in a modern society that works for most people.

Let's think about the food argument. If I produce food with my own labour and keep it for myself, because I made it - that's pretty much fine.

Then my neighbour, who doesn't have the same ability to produce food as me begins to starve. His parents never educated him with any agricultural skills so he doesn't know what to do. Then his first child dies of starvation.

When his second child dies of starvation, this guy is pretty angry at me and burns my house down. Destroying me, my family and all of the food I had. His actions are illegal - but I would understand them.

I could use a similar argument in terms of foreign aid. Here the UK foreign aid budget is currently about £1 billion per annum. It's purpose is to help other countries. You may say those countries should sort themselves out and not rely on handouts - but this is about reduction of potential harm for all. If our neighbours are safer because we help them out, we make our own environment safer.

I don't call this socialism, more self preservation.

Vidyut

Vidyut April 23rd, 2015 08:26

I did not realize that this had become such a big thing with pitched camps etc :p

In line.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 23rd, 2015 06:28

// balu, Currently a huge amount of our taxes is spend on defense. You have a problem if more money is spent on building houses? //

I simply disagree to spending my money (which is result of my effort, unless you can prove otherwise) in something I don't agree with. Whether it be war or houses. You need to get consensus before doing that and I keep the right to say no to it if I want to. Yes, I am ok with losing the services that I would've received had I said yes. Is there such a provision?

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 23rd, 2015 06:17

First of all, don't put words on my mouth. I perfectly know what I told and I never denied that there was slavery or feudalism or colonialism or untouchability. History is of course one of the tools we can look up on how to make a just tool. But, generalisation of events to "history" is something I don't agree to. I acknowledge history but I don't find it complete or cent percent authentic. History has been tweaked, mutated and re-engineered and hence can not be taken as a benchmark to identify all wrongs reverse them. Who decides which version of history is correct? (Or are you under the beleif that there is only one history. If so, sorry for you)

Few points
1. You say my wealth was made from forceful acquisitions by previous generations. Ok, prove it with some substantiable evidence. Else, stop this generalisation. Yes. That is how world runs (as of now). If you want to build a new world, first stand on the current world and play by its rules. Then modify the rules.

  1. If you can not prove the above, then yes - don't touch the result of my effort (not inheritence, not privilege but EFFORT) without my permission. You can't simply assume something to be true.

Assumption and hope are two different things. We can build up a constitution based on hopes and modify it as and when required. Hope that everyone play nice and help out the neighbour when we ask them. Afterall, we all hope a world where all plays nice and strive to accomplish that.
But, if we start assuming things and consider those assumptions authentic, it is foolish. We are answerable to those assumptions. We need to justify those assumptions.

About forking, no. I am not forking Indian Pirates and starting another group. I had agreed to the constitution when I joined and I still agree to it. But I demand clarity on it. If the constitution is forming up a way that I can't accept to, then I will re-think.

Till then constitution is just unclear and vague for me, not wrong. And I am not disagreeing to something that ain't wrong. I think I have made that clear now. I agree to the constitution; I demand clarity.

PS : On a friendly note, stop putting the concept of forking whenever there is talk of dissent. IMO, forking is the last resort; not the first choice. Trying to reach consensus comes before forking and discussions lead to consensus. You simply can't put forking on the table in the middle of a discussion.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 23rd, 2015 05:52

balu, Currently a huge amount of our taxes is spend on defense. You have a problem if more money is spent on building houses?

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 23rd, 2015 05:47

Balu, are you denying there was feudalism, untouchability, colonialism, slavery and all of history as we know is fairy tales? History is one of the most important tools we have to decide how to make a just world. There is no meaning to argue further if you refuse to acknowledge history. if "don't touch my inheritances and privilleges, its my right, collect good karma for privilleges in next life" is your policy, sorry, that is not what we are building this collective for. Since you and Jemshid agree on those ideas, you could make another group with those principles. We can continue working together on common issues where we agree.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 23rd, 2015 04:46

History is and can not be taken as an authentic guideline to decide how we act in the present. Yes, what you say is absolutely right and wealth was once acquired by force. But, for that to be taken as authentic, it should be substantiable and officially documented, since in the current socio-economic circumstances documented equals official equals authentic (How that is an absurd argument is actually another thread. :) ).

Well, leave that aside and let's focus on that amendment.
I won't choose the phrase "political settlement". It adds a gangsta tone to it, which may validate the "by force" argument Jemshid questioned.

How about this one? This is a basic idea from the top of my head and may have many loopholes.

Fulfilling of these rights may be implemented by redirecting the money from other sources like taxes or profit from our institutions. However, these redirections will be completely transparent and criticizable. They are subject to a consensus agreement and will not be forcefully levied.

@Others: suggestions please.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 23rd, 2015 03:24

If you look back at history, wealth were taken by force and the wealth you inherit has a component of that. It is indeed desired by those who got the privilleges to not mention history.

How about we add lines like this to constitution.

We should strive for political settlement with our neighbours and redirect money spend on decence to achieve these rights for everyone.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 23rd, 2015 03:08

Balu, your hardwork has a component of historic oppression/privillege, you cannot ignore that. Some people justify it as luck/fate etc so how you see that is important in this discussion.

Balu, Jemshid, suggest the amendments you consider acceptable. It is never claimed to be perfect anyway.

JK

Jemshid KK April 23rd, 2015 00:57

@akshay
Can we make an attempt to define rights?
Can I define rights as those things for it's implementation, use of physical force is acceptable?

//Do I think everyone has a right to life? Yes. Does it mean I’ll take someone’s life and transplant his heart to someone who needs a heart? No//

I find that you have two kidneys and my neighbor is in need of a kidney. Do I have a right to take your kidney by force and transplant it on my neighbor?

JK

Jemshid KK April 23rd, 2015 00:33

@vidyut
//1. We probably need a new philosophy for changing times. //

Do we ever say that we need a new science for changing times?!

//Many things and values have changed and our ideas of governance have not engaged with them to a large extent.//
When we speak of change, I came across this article today.

18 spectacularly wrong apocalyptic predictions made around the time of the first Earth Day in 1970, expect more this year

http://www.aei.org/publication/18-spectacularly-wrong-apocalyptic-predictions-made-around-the-time-of-the-first-earth-day-in-1970-expect-more-this-year-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+aei-ideas%2Fcarpe-diem+%28AEIdeas+%C2%BB+Carpe+Diem%29

//2. Libertarian sides are sucky sources for views on socialism, just like socialist websites are sucky sources for views on Libertarianism.//

Many of us believe that socialism is a holy cow (Is this usage politically correct in the current Indian political scene?) which should never be criticized. The intention while quoting Ayn Rand is not to ascertain a fact, but to make people think about fundamentals and empirical results of socialism.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 22nd, 2015 14:59

Ah, I couldn't say this on the "Voting Members" subgroup as I am not a member there. Let me state it here.

I am not simply disagreeing with the constitution. I am challenging its vagueness. I am demanding a clarity on what we have stated in constitution. If you think constitution is not the place to elaborate but one which should be concise, fine. Make another social document and make it clear there. Whatever we do, this vagueness should not be left unattended. No constitution will be precise in their first draft - it needs criticisms and updations. You define only fundamental rights in the constitution?? I am fine with that ; but that is not an excuse for those definitions be kept vague.

Jemshid's question actually explored this vagueness. We said "everyone has right". How is it implemented is a simple question that we may face. We must have an answer to that. Though not a perfect one. "We will do as and when times require" is not an answer. At least not one suited for a movement with such brilliant ideologies.

Exaggerating the essence of Jemshid's question to "life and heart transplantation" analogy is nothing but stupid. This can not be stated over and over. We are talking about physical stuff like "food", "house" etc and how my possession of them will be affected for the sake of equality.

// Do I think everyone has a right to life? Yes. Does it mean I’ll take someone’s life and transplant his heart to someone who needs a heart? No. //

Excellent. Please share what all comes under your definition of "life" and how you intend to ensure equality in all those sectors? I don't need a complete answer, but I definitely need an answer, at least an idea to stand upon.

I know we can't predefine and document every aspect and scenario where equality may be violated and how we intend to solve this. But, we should start somewhere and expand it as we move on. This may be also seen as premature optimization. But to me, premature optimization is far better than a temporary solution dominating the existence of a final solution just for the sake of practicality.

Until now, no one has cleared Jemshid's doubts and concerns. All we have done is ask questions back and scale up or down the issue from its core essence. He is right, something is not right in the constitution regarding those sections and should me made correct and clear.
Or if there is a consensus that it is already perfect and needs no modification, then yes, I will disagree to that constitution. Until then, I am challenging it.

Akshay

Akshay April 22nd, 2015 14:26

a right to realize equal life chances regardless of identity.

Every one has a right to food, housing, education, healthcare and privacy

These are like fundamental rights. No constitution would mention how to achieve those I think. How to grant fundamental rights to all citizens is a question that a democracy has to think about every day, on a case by case basis.

@balasankarchelamat I do not understand why you object to the constitution based on @jemshidkk 's idea of how we are going to get everyone those fundamental rights.

Do I think everyone has a right to life? Yes. Does it mean I'll take someone's life and transplant his heart to someone who needs a heart? No.

Vidyut

Vidyut April 22nd, 2015 13:20

  1. We probably need a new philosophy for changing times. Many things and values have changed and our ideas of governance have not engaged with them to a large extent.

  2. Libertarian sides are sucky sources for views on socialism, just like socialist websites are sucky sources for views on Libertarianism.

Vidyut

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Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 22nd, 2015 09:16

I demand we clarify what we mean when we say "everyone has a right". Does it mean we forcefully take them from those who already have it and start from scratch by providing equal opportunity?? Do we threaten them" If you don't agree to every single point in our constitution you won't enjoy any of the services we provide". Not that we will do anything like that, but it should be made clear.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 22nd, 2015 09:04

I don't intend to reply to the concepts of luck or fate or karma about which I didn't mention anything. My concept is simple - ensure equal opportunity, nott equal right. Opportunity to study, opportunity to put that education into use, opportunity to live. Equality should be ensured from the root level itself. Not after I worked my ass off to generate income.

I agreed to the constitution. Now when I think about it in another angle I am having these doubts. Jemshid raised similar ones and I found them valid. AFAIK our core ideas are not immune to updations or modifications.

JK

Jemshid KK April 22nd, 2015 06:57

/Basically, you’re saying socialism sucks./

Yes. Socialism sucks.

A few quotes from http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/socialism.html for convenience

"Socialism may be established by force, as in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics—or by vote, as in Nazi (National Socialist) Germany."

"Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster."

"Socialism is merely democratic absolute monarchy—that is, a system of absolutism without a fixed head, open to seizure of power by all corners, by any ruthless climber, opportunist, adventurer, demagogue or thug."

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism—by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide."

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 22nd, 2015 03:42

Also constitution is common minimum program for the collective. We offer our discussion platform for those who disagree so either could change. But accepting the constitution is required for membership. We want to make changes in society not just discuss philosophical aspects of life. You don't need to be an official member to participate. But basic agreement on core ideas is necessary to work as a collective. We can still make alliances of different collectives on common themes.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 22nd, 2015 03:35

Balu, do you believe luck, fate or karma from previous incarnation should be the basis for one's status and opportunities in life?

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 21st, 2015 18:03

Not completely. Some portions of it suck. Like forceful wealth acquisition, just coz the other guy need it too. Pirate Movement is not another face of pure socialism. It adopts from socialism (and many other good -isms).

I vote for "equal opportunity" rather than "equal right". But, providing equal opportunity is somewhat utopian and needs a well-defined-well-planned-well-executed-long-term-course-of-action and we may need a temporary solution to start with. But, finally, that is my (AFAIK, our) aim and so it should be made clear in the constitution.

Akshay

Akshay April 21st, 2015 17:59

Basically, you're saying socialism sucks.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 21st, 2015 17:51

//Nobody is taking your money and giving it to someone else.
What is redistributed is opportunity. They take your money and distribute it as opportunity to those who are deprived of it.//

Err.. Aren't those two contradicting each other?? Do I pay money or opportunity?? If it is opportunity, do I lose my job inorder to give the other guy an opportunity?? If it is money, where is my compensation for you taking my money for something I don't agree to?

//Laziness is not the eligibility to get help from the Government. Opportunity deprivation is.//

And is it solved by "exploiting" my opportunity?

// After a limit, if you’re earning more money, you’re not going to be able to use it. And therefore there is no actual point in you making that money. And so, in the big picture, it is better for that money to be redistributed. //

Are we playing digital Robin Hood?? I decide whether the money created by my effort is useful or useless. Not the government.. Government don't own me. If I see the taxes they levy as valid, I pay them. Else, I don't. And I am ready to give up the services which I would've received if I had paid those taxes. But for that, I need clarity. Clarity on how the tax I pay is spent. Whether it is spent on an idea that I agree to.

Akshay

Akshay April 21st, 2015 17:33

  • Nobody is taking your money and giving it to someone else.
  • What is redistributed is opportunity. They take your money and distribute it as opportunity to those who are deprived of it.
  • Laziness is not the eligibility to get help from the Government. Opportunity deprivation is.
  • After a limit, if you're earning more money, you're not going to be able to use it. And therefore there is no actual point in you making that money. And so, in the big picture, it is better for that money to be redistributed.
Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 21st, 2015 16:17

Blunt levying of taxes, just for the sake of "equality" is what I am opposing. Taxation should be properly transparent and categorized. The income tax I pay is being used to "provide equality of food" is not something I agree with. It was levied for the services I get w.r.t the sector from where I earn that income. So, it should be channelled to that sector itself. This should happen for every sector, thereby making each of them self-sufficient.
Making every goddamn sector self sufficient is the ultimate goal of a government, not providing till the end of eternity.
You want to provide food to the poor? Take it out of the tax you levy from the food production sector. Make a cycle.

Jemshid's question remains - If I find out the tax I am paying is used for ideas that I disagree with, do I have the option to stay out of paying "that" tax (and thereby excluding myself from enjoying the services which that idea provides) and still enjoy the other services, for which I pay tax for??

Akshay

Akshay April 21st, 2015 15:44

Taxation is the foundation of the constitution. There's no Government that lives without taxes. You can't disagree with that part.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 21st, 2015 07:28

BTW, what happened to the discussion that @jemshidkk started and @praveen @vik and @akshay followed?? I was enjoying it and it abruptly stopped.

Actually, I am in support of Jemshid's side (even though I wish to see Praveen's idea in execution one day - however utopian it may seem. Afterall we are all working towards to get a future where it will be implemented right?). Other person's right to have food should not mean the food (or part of it) I have is taken from me and given to him. I earned my food (I am not talking about using my Dad's money to buy food - I put effort to make my food) and it is primarly and ultimately my right. If the other guy wants food, he should not be given the food which was taken from me. But, he should be made able to produce his own food (or something - product or service - which he can exchange to get food). You don't get a man a fish, you teach him how to catch one.
If he/she is unable to do that due to his conditions or societiy's inequal mindset or something like that, change the damn society. Change the damn system. The society, being harsh to him/her in accomplishing his needs is no reason to infringe in the product of my work.

Yes, the society does not play fair and equal. But, when you force me to share the product of my work with someone who don't have product (whatever the reason may be), it ain't democracy. It is just majoritarianism.

Yes. I used the knowledge of the previous generations to cultivate food. Due to that I am ready to share my food - but not for free. I want reward for my efforts - I tilled the land, I sowed the seeds, I watered it - I did everything (or I paid to get it done. Anyway it was essentially my wealth that was spent). You want a piece of it? Then pay me for my effort dumbass. Period.

Also, I don't agree to @akshay 's arguments. Just because I dissent from the provisions of constitution doesn't mean I am out of the structure. I simply disagree to follow the portions that I feel improper. That just means I can't exercise that provisions either. But, I have equal rights to exercise the provisions of constitution that I abide to. It ain't the "whole or nothing business".

A gun doesn't mean a physical gun. Just the threatening of "Either you agree to the constitution in whole, or you may dissent and live alone" is also a gun, a figurative one.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C April 20th, 2015 14:22

I would like to apply for permanent membership. I was an initial member, both here at Indian Pirates and its previous installation - Pirate Party of India. I have been a part in the discussions which shaped our constitution. Also, I have helped in the initial organizing of Diaspora Yatra, along with Anish and Sugeesh. I have also helped share the essence of Diaspora by taking classes about Diaspora in educational institutions like CUSAT.

shine

shine April 20th, 2015 11:31

@akshay, @praveenarimbrathod : thank you for accepting me into the pack of pirates. Happy to be here. :-)

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen April 20th, 2015 01:15

@shine welcome as an associate member. As @akshay mentioned initial members are used only for bootatraping. You can be a permanent member after 6 months if you get support from 2 voting members. Stating acceptance to constitution is the only requirement to be an associate member.

Akshay

Akshay April 19th, 2015 20:30

@shine Initial Membership was used for bootstrapping and now that we've some permanent members it is no longer required. I am considering your request as a request for associate membership and putting it to vote here. If 2 voting members agree you'll become an associate member.