Loomio
September 13th, 2015 06:36

What is our position on the use of the death penalty?

vik@hamara
vik@hamara Public Seen by 339

Indian Pirates should oppose the use of the death penalty. Legal systems are fraught with inefficiency, lack of fairness and outright corruption. In this scenario can we really support a system that provides an irreversible conclusion?
Law changes over time, we cannot bring back the dead who's acts are no longer deemed illegal.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara September 18th, 2015 14:40

@rajudvindane @praveenarimbrathod @vidyut @karthikeyanak do you guys have any views on this?

Karthikeyan A K

Karthikeyan A K September 18th, 2015 16:45

Some people are afraid of death, and it seems the only deterrent against certain crimes.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara September 18th, 2015 22:00

@karthikeyanak but which crimes are you free of because of this deterrent?

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen September 19th, 2015 05:03

@vik we should stand for abolishion of death penalty.

  1. You already mentioned corruption and chance of wrong conclusions.
  2. When the crime happens mostly, people don't think about getting caught. Even if they are caught poor people are getting punished more than the rich (there is a recent study).
  3. It is about revenge than justice.
Vidyut

Vidyut September 22nd, 2015 05:58

I have mixed feelings. I am against punishment in general, let alone death penalty. I'd like to find more functional ways to deliver justice to begin with. The idea of society agreeing of norms of behavior to the point of taking life is troubling. Perhaps I do not want to have responsibility for such a decision - which is implied with the judiciary acting on behalf laws created for me - the citizen. This is utopia. At least as of now.

That said, I do understand that in a country fraught with terrible challenges, some situations would justify the death penalty rather than risking lives of others. Repeat offenders in violent crimes, fanatical leaders continuing to inspire and provoke mass violence (who sadly never land in jail), key prisoners who would provide high value targets for blackmail or hostage taking for exchanges, premediated brutality to achieve objectives, etc... I can understand how safeguarding may be beyond the capacity of the state and the most functional (even if not ideal) solution would be the death penalty.

In my view, whatever the state decides, it must be after considered debate and clear to the public. The standards, while keeping some potential for preventing an execution, must not be so vague as to result in a perversion of justice by manifesting unequally across social prejudices like class, caste or religion. Robust process and clear guidelines for sentencing, appeals and execution are important so that neither the state nor prisoners can pervert the system to their ends.

I think the issue with death penalty in India is not so much that it is present, but it is present in a manner that favors some and targets others.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara September 22nd, 2015 08:06

@vidyut I feel like I need to try and convince you further. Perhaps these points will help:

  1. No country that has the death penalty is free from crime - so it therefore does not act as a deterrent.

  2. We have no shortage of solutions for keeping people incarcerated - it's a huge industry. We should not be taking someones life for the sake of saving costs.

  3. None of the pro arguments deal with the case of a miscarriage of just.

  4. More than 117 nations worldwide have abandoned capital punishment in law or in practice. By retaining it we keep company with some of the worlds worst human rights abusers.

Vidyut

Vidyut September 22nd, 2015 11:24

Thank you @vik. I am convinced. Like I said, I would prefer even a lack of punishment. There is a need to separate justice from revenge.

There are ways miscarriage of justice can be prevented and there is miscarriage of justice in all sorts of punishments. I am merely making points I find somewhat unique to how I think to add to the thought flow.

I'd be happy if the death penalty were done away with. I am merely saying that I accept there are reasons to accept it under unique circumstances. I think there is an urgent need to make the law equal for people who are supposedly equal before it. When the law is not equal, then the death penalty actually becomes a weapon of communal hate - which in my view is even more dangerous than the death penalty alone - a state with laws perverted against some citizens and in favor of others is what we have right now.

vik@hamara

vik@hamara September 24th, 2015 15:58

Interestingly Pope Francis is addressing the US Congress today on this topic.

"Pope calls on Congress to help abolish the death penalty

The pontiff’s speech continues to address many of what in ordinary circumstances would be considered “third rails” in American politics. Now, he sets his sights on the death penalty.

“The Golden Rule” - “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, from Matthew chapter 7, verse 12 - “also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development,” he says."

vik@hamara

vik@hamara October 5th, 2015 10:13

vik@hamara

vik@hamara October 27th, 2015 17:15

@rajudvindane @gounder @abhijithb @akshay @arjun looking for some more views on this - what do you guys say?

Akshay

Akshay October 27th, 2015 17:36

I certainly don't believe in 'eye for an eye'. But I have no idea how to think about issues like this which are full of complications of culture, psychology, psychopathology, etc.

DU

[deactivated account] October 27th, 2015 18:41

same here ..i get in a fix when im asked about stuff like this.. Cuz im not really sure .. my question is , what is the alternative? 'An eye for an eye' - I do not stand by it as well.. I also feel that the death penalty is no terror deterrent.. but I doubt if I'd feel the same way if it were to affect me.. for instance, how do you convince a person who has lost his family to a murderer that the best way to resolve the issue would be to simply put the perpetrator behind bars for a very long time? ..

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 27th, 2015 19:31

@arjun there are two different things here. One getting convinced yourself and convincing others. You don't have to accept only things that you can convince others. Then we can never change anything. Also it is ignoring your own capacity to think and decide yourself.

Akshay

Akshay October 27th, 2015 19:34

But you see, here, the very choice of our position depends on what works for the society.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 27th, 2015 19:38

@akshay changing society is a an after effect of more people getting convinced.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 27th, 2015 19:39

Considering others is different from using others as an excuse. Do we stop using internet till everyone in the society has internet?

Akshay

Akshay October 27th, 2015 19:49

Here, let me explain the circularity.

Why do we have punishments? To ensure social justice, to deter criminals, to ensure safety of everyone.
Is death penalty a good punishment?
Does it ensure social justice? What's social justice?
Does it deter criminals? How on earth can I figure this out?
Does it ensure anyone's safety? Does anything ensure anyone's safety?

How am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to be convinced about?

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 27th, 2015 19:54

@akshay asking these questions are a good start. Now try to find answers to these questions and ask more questions when you are not clear. It may take time to get answer to some questions, but don't give up asking and finding answers.

What are your own answers to these questions?

DU

[deactivated account] October 27th, 2015 20:44

@praveenarimbrathod "One getting convinced yourself and convincing others. You don’t have to accept only things that you can convince others. Then we can never change anything. Also it is ignoring your own capacity to think and decide yourself." - I dint really understand what you were trying to say..

Update: okay, I think I get what you were trying to say there.. Well.. Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the death penalty.. I'm just confused.. I guess it's cuz I've never really had such al conversation with anyone about this before.. Nor have I read much about it..

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen October 27th, 2015 20:59

@arjun the entire society is so much into revenge than justice (just look at all the Indian movies), so forming our own opinions based on how we can convince others is not the right approach. Indeed, we have to find ways to convince others, but that should not be a factor in deciding our own opinions. Once we are clear about something ourselves, then we can find ways to convince others.

No one is born a murderer or a terrorist or rapist, unlike most politicians and religions want us to believe. An child growing up in US or UK to Indian parents will have values of his surroundings. If the same child were to be bought up in India, they would be a totally different person.

So society as a whole is responsible for murders, terrorists, rapists etc. About punishments, those are to stop further harm. When people are angry and fighting, last thing they would be thinking is punishment as deterrent. They would want to not get caught rather than not do it. For a small percentage of people it may be a deterrent.

So we have to stop making criminals by ensuring justice. When justice is denied, it creates more criminals, even perception of denied justice and victim hood can create more criminals.

DU

[deactivated account] October 27th, 2015 21:22

@praveenarimbrathod "So society as a whole is responsible for murders, terrorists, rapists etc." - Agreed.. but its very difficult I tell you..
Ill just type down what i feel about crime in our society.. This might not have anything to do with the death penalty but since we are talking about 'society being responsible for crimes' and we both agree on it , here goes-

We have become a consumerist society.. At least the people in Chennai have become.. Everyone wants the latest gadget and wants to drive/ ride a nice car/bike , wants to go to the mall and buy expensive stuff.. FOR FREE! Without having to work for it! .. Noone seems satisfied.. Especially with youngsters , the pressure is too much .. the pressure to keep up.. If you do not own the latest smartphone , you are out! You are looked down upon .. Trust me , this is how it was when i graduated from college 7 yrs back and this is how it is now.. in fact worse! ..And this is not just the case with middle class .. its the same in the slums too , you could ask any of your maids / milkmans / iron walas and they will tell you the same .. you know what happens next? ..They resort to stealing! ..And stealing is the smallest form of crime ..the more courageous ones resort to chain snatching, etc.. and believe me , they do not "feed" their family with their money as some of us might think .. they fulfill their desires of keeping up with our society.. And the corporations and the media encourage it.. why wouldnt they? ..The more the merrier! ..You keep flashing those so called "party" video songs on tv all the time , the kids feel THAT is life and thats that! .. Im not blaming anyone in particular .. But I feel we've become too much of a consumerist society and everyones in on the rat race .. and that everyone needs everything .. that too quick! and without having to work much for it..

Eventually what happens is , people who can afford it have no problems .. and those who cant , and are impatient, resort to criminal ways to fulfill their desires..

Im sorry if I went off topic .. but this is what I feel about crime..
And so coming back to society as a whole being responsible.. how do we change that? ..

DU

[deactivated account] October 27th, 2015 21:28

And now I feel I've typed too much and that since this thread is "public" .. Im getting paranoid now! :|

Vidyut

Vidyut October 28th, 2015 16:02

@arjun I'll write an article in protest if you get arrested :p

DU

[deactivated account] October 28th, 2015 16:06

@vidyut hahaha ..hey make me look like a hero yeah? ..
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Now you know why i asked you if you ever were threatened?

Vidyut

Vidyut October 28th, 2015 16:09

And like I said. the trick is in being a big enough voice that silencing you will cause uproar, and small enough that there is no need to silence you ;)

While the risks of killing you are bigger than those of letting you live.... you'll be fine :p

DU

[deactivated account] October 28th, 2015 16:14

@vidyut i absolutely agree! .. and i shall remember that :)

vik@hamara

vik@hamara started a proposal November 24th, 2015 16:18

Indian Pirates should stand for the abolition of the death penalty Closed 4:07pm - Friday 27 Nov 2015

Outcome
by vik@hamara April 25th, 2017 05:22

The majority of people that gave a view agreed with the proposal so I guess it should stand.

Please read the description in the main thread.

Results
Agree - 5
Abstain - 2
Disagree - 0
Block - 0
7 people have voted (0%)
vik@hamara

vik@hamara
Agree
November 24th, 2015 16:19

DU

[deactivated account]
Abstain
November 24th, 2015 20:09

VP

vishnu Prakash November 25th, 2015 07:07

We should stand against death penalty. Agreed

VP

vishnu Prakash
Agree
November 25th, 2015 07:08

Death penalty is not the solution for crime

Alexander Gounder

Alexander Gounder
Abstain
November 26th, 2015 16:31

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
Agree
November 27th, 2015 04:52

It is the logical next step from a revenge based society to a society based on human values

VM

vishnu m
Agree
November 27th, 2015 05:07

Balasankar C

Balasankar C
Agree
November 27th, 2015 07:35

We are humans for a reason. Eye for an eye is not how Judiciary should work. Change it to life sentence which should be in fact for whole life and convicts should be given opportunity to earn income (jobs@jails) so taxpayer need not pay for them.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen May 9th, 2016 17:57

Since we already have a consensus on this, I think a separate vote in "Permanent Members" sub group is redundant. We can add the following to our manifesto. "We will abolish death penalty".