Loomio

Creating our own cryptocurrency to crowd fund the Internet Party

SD
Suzie Dawson Public Seen by 642

Research thread on how to create our own coin and issue it
Please attach related links below

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Dependencies:
"cryptocoin dependent on a small network of nodes running their blockchain."

What do you get:
"An ICO is in some ways similar to an initial public offering. Both are done to raise funds, but, instead of stock, your ICO purchase gets you a new type of coin or token, an asset rather than a security.... The token can represent some sort of value or be of value itself. An ICO might involve attributing equity to a token so that ownership gives you voting privileges and access to dividends, which is what the now infamous fund raising effort of The DAO did. Their use case for a token is the most similar to that of an IPO, however, the majority of use cases are for something different. The typical use case of a token issued in an ICO is the creation of an asset that gives you access to the features of a particular project. Instead of having cash or Bitcoin as the way to pay for goods and services from the ICO offerer, you use their token."

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

recruitment via word of mouth:

"As such, these loyalty points now have a variable value, based off of market perception and growing use of the platform. This creates a very interesting incentive mechanism because now the users of the platform who are receiving the tokens have incentives to bring other users to the platform in order to increase the value of their tokens."

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Here's why mining is important:

"Bitcoin represents a decentralized monetary system, whereby users have direct control of their money and can send money to one another in a peer to peer fashion. No one company owns Bitcoin or verifies the legitimacy of transactions, instead, this is done in a decentralized way by stakeholders called miners, and to a lesser extent, user nodes. Everyone is incentivized to maintain the system through transaction fees directly from the users and the creation of new tokens, which in this case is the mining of Bitcoin. This mix of incentives and decentralization make it such that, for the first time, users no longer need to rely on a third party to issue, hold or transact with funds digitally."

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Why big business and traditional investors are getting involved with bitcoin:

"Terpin explains that “as a angel investor, you can put 25k into company equity, then the company goes through many more rounds of funding, and perhaps sells for $300m, but your stake has been diluted to almost nothing if there's a down round anywhere along the way. With tokens, you can do the same kind of analysis of team and technology, but because it's a trading token and not private equity, you can get out whenever you want. Even though tokens are typically not securities, they act more like gold or public stock from day one in terms of liquidity. This alone, coupled with the current bull market for ICOs, means a lot of investors are saying ‘I’ll take my chances with tokens’. Investors like it. Companies like it. Companies don’t give up any equity, just tokens, which in most cases are their product. Because it's a product, it's more akin to wine futures than stock. It’s a product with a resale value.”

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

One expert says these are the 6 questions to ask ourselves:

  1. Is your technology a platform, really?
  2. What will your platform add to the crypto/blockchain community that isn’t already being served by someone else?
  3. Does your technology need it’s own token?
  4. How will you offer your token? — voucher, direct token distribution, or convertible note?
  5. How will you issue and accept contributions: Bitcoin, Ethereum, or both
  6. How big is your network, is it dense and engaged, or sparse and quiet?
SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Important to label as a donation:

"The more appropriate nomenclature for this emerging process can be better expressed as a “Token Generating Event”, or a “Token Donation”, as under certain jurisdictions, this is a specific and distinct definition, that aligned with the proper structure, provides clarity to the authorities on what exactly you are doing with your proposed endeavour."

BB

Blake Bedford-Palmer Sun 13 Aug 2017

DEFINITELY something we should look in to

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Legal considerations:

Corporate formation
KYC , AML, and Compliance
Crowdfunding
Securities law
Data privacy
Tax law

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

"Technical and Business Trust
Do you have a thoughtful proposition of your technology that is in the form of a Position paper? A Position paper is not your “deck” in black and white A3 paper. It is a clear 2–3 page argument that you are trying to make that is supported by your technology proposal.
Once you have had your position paper out for a while, hopefully you have posted it on your website, or showed it to people privately. Your nascent community will be able to make comments, and suggestions that you can develop the Position paper into a White paper.
A Whitepaper details specifically how you propose your technology will actually work. These documents typically have very detailed architectures, unique scripts, user flows, a go to market strategy, a value proposition, and more detail about your growing team and advisors. Many have token distribution terms, and a usage of funds description that will tell supporters how you propose to go about your endeavor. It’s not so much a prospectus in the traditional sense, but it acts very much like one."

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

"When a digital transaction is carried out, it is grouped together in a cryptographically protected block with other transactions that have occurred in the last 10 minutes and sent out to the entire network. Miners (members in the network with high levels of computing power) then compete to validate the transactions by solving complex coded problems.[11] The first miner to solve the problems and validate the block receives a reward. (In the Bitcoin Blockchain network, for example, a miner would receive Bitcoins)."

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Having read this article, I'm sold.

SD

Suzie Dawson Sun 13 Aug 2017

Good read re interactivity and integrations: ignore the particulars relating specifically to the Polkadot products but just read for general knowledge re interplay between local and existing networks: https://polkadot.io -> "Paper"

MM

Miriam Mallinder Sun 13 Aug 2017

Gosh! You could have saved yourself the trouble! A former exec member whom you refused to find common ground with or acknowledge had value, has a family member right into all this stuff and could have helped.
(not me)

CE

Colin England Mon 14 Aug 2017

Ah, so the Internet Party is all about crashing the economy for their own gain?

There's very good reasons why private currency was made illegal and should stay so. And we should also be looking at banning the use of 'bank money' which, although in the same denomination as the state currency, is also private money and pushes both inflation and the collapse of the economy.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Mon 14 Aug 2017

When I was on Exec it was about trying to win an election without big money. We were all volunteers, donating time and money as we could.

BB

Blake Bedford-Palmer Mon 14 Aug 2017

That's pretty much what we are doing now, but money is still needed

BB

Blake Bedford-Palmer Mon 14 Aug 2017

What do you mean illegal? Any retailer in NZ is fine to accept Bitcoin as payments

MM

Miriam Mallinder Mon 14 Aug 2017

Cool, and yes it is interesting to note that perhaps some money is needed after all isn't it? But what for? to employ people who are only in it for the money and not the passion then take off when there is no more money? or for media presence and other incidentals? We need 'engaged' people at the top. If you are one of those, that's awesome.

Crowdfunding is a change. I met the founder and developer of "give a little" about 10 years ago, it has only been in the last couple of years that he has become a "thing". Do put it into the 'budget' that the idea of crowdfunding a Political Party could take some years too. No reason to not do it, but it will take time to take off. (I'd say three years at least if all the texts on change management are to be believed)

Have you asked Suzie how she spent the Electoral Commission funds? ... yes, we were given permission by them to do so ... but ...

SD

Suzie Dawson Mon 14 Aug 2017

This is a research thread to share and discuss cryptocurrencies, created in good faith.

Contrary opinions about policy subjects are fine. Using our Loomio threads as a platform to attack me and (again) attempt to create drama and undermine and divert us is not.

The malicious false allegations being posted here serve only to distract from the actual topics being discussed.

Statements like this are phrased as questions because were they instead framed as a statement of the falsehood she is actually implying, it would constitute actual actionable libel: "Have you asked Suzie how she spent the Electoral Commission funds?"

Bringing malicious bad energy to threads where there is none is a transparent behaviour, it is also immature and unacceptable. If the person involved (who resigned as a member of the party, and has subsequently been sending us toxic unsolicited emails to which we do not respond) continues this behaviour, she will be banned from the Loomio permanently.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Mon 14 Aug 2017

Publish the last two e-mails I sent you to prove they were toxic (I have only sent two since I resigned) If you had responded, I might not have sought attention here.

Regarding questions, anyone is welcome to ask me for a private explanation of why I resigned from exec.

SD

Suzie Dawson Mon 14 Aug 2017

This thread is not about you, despite your attempts to make it so. We are here talking about policies and opportunities. Of course we would not respond to your needling emails. Exec has been drama-free since your departure. If you can't participate like an adult here, withdraw.

CE

Colin England Tue 15 Aug 2017

How We Got Here

Laws that make it illegal for you to print your own £5 or £10 notes have been in place since 1844.

Before then it was legal and it caused havoc and collapse of the economy. BitCoin and all the other crypto-currencies are set to do the same thing because everybody could produce their own currency as this thread shows.

Now, I figure that BitCoin is legal in the same way that artificial weed was legal when first introduced - their simply wasn't any law specifically against it. We need to outlaw it ASAP.

Those who fail to learn from the past are bound to repeat it.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Tue 15 Aug 2017

That's interesting. Yet Bitcoin is alive and well and now widely traded. I am wondering whether they have overcome this barrier some way? And so if we wanted to make our own then we would need to go the same route?

BB

Blake Bedford-Palmer Tue 15 Aug 2017

There is quite a difference to creating a completely new currency than forging notes for an existing currency (Printing NZ Dollars for example).

Crypto like Bitcoin work because of what people have agreed on. Bitcoin is now legally recognised in many countries (including Australia). Its huge in Japan, and recently 1 bitcoin is now worth 4K USD. Many large companies including banks are interested in the technology behind it (Blockchain). Bitcoin works on scarcity like gold. New Bitcoins take a lot of work from computers around the world to generate and only 21 million bitcoins can ever exist.

The free market decides what one bitcoin is worth, There are many other crypto currencies like LiteCoin, Ethereum) which each have their own purposes and values

CE

Colin England Tue 15 Aug 2017

There is quite a difference to creating a completely new currency than forging notes for an existing currency (Printing NZ Dollars for example).

No there isn't.

However, rather than lend the coins, the goldsmiths would write out new paper receipts for borrowers. This meant that the bank could issue paper receipts to other borrowers without needing many – or even any – coins in the vault. With only £1,000 of coins in the vault the bank could lend out £2,000, £4,000 or as much paper money as it dared too. (Of course, the banks still faced some restrictions – if too many people came to get their money back at the same time then it would be obvious that the bank didn’t have enough money to repay everyone.)

The banks had acquired the power to create a substitute for the metal money created by the government. In effect, they had acquired the power to create money.

That is what the crypto-currencies are doing and it has the same effect. Massive inflation and the inevitable collapse of the economy.

The free market decides what one bitcoin is worth

A BitCoin is worth the same as all other currencies - nothing. Money is a tool to utilise a nations resources. Having private people creating money to utilise a nations resources results in far too much money. A major problem with the present banking system in fact.

CE

Colin England Tue 15 Aug 2017

I am wondering whether they have overcome this barrier some way?

They haven't. BitCoin has an absolute limit on how many are created and so seems to have an inbuilt limit but if anyone can create a currency then we have unlimited amount of money available and not an unlimited amount of resources.

And so if we wanted to make our own then we would need to go the same route?

Creating our own currency is the problem because if we can then everyone can.

SD

Suzie Dawson Tue 15 Aug 2017

The secret to why Bitcoin works is the blockchain technology on which it is based.

It is a distributed validation mechanism for any and all statistics, that is unhackable.

Having spoken to some of the top experts on this technology in the world in the last few days, I now understand why blockchain is the future of every industry.

In the future, all businesses in New Zealand and even the government as a whole will operate on a blockchain.

This is going to replace all the major vulnerability-filled commercial and industrial software solutions that exist in the current marketplace.

Internet Party needs to be at the coalface of developing blockchain policy for the betterment of the New Zealand economy because this is something that is not going away. It is not only the future, it's already here.

IA

idiom axiom Tue 15 Aug 2017

We should advocate rapid uptake of bitcoin and ethereum so that tax avoidance and cash payments can come to a tidy end. Make it impossible to make a payment without the government being able to trace it.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png

CE

Colin England Tue 15 Aug 2017

The secret to why Bitcoin works is the blockchain technology on which it is based.

And the reason why it doesn't work is because everyone will create their own currency - as we seem to be trying to do. And when everyone has their own currency no currency works.

SD

Suzie Dawson Wed 16 Aug 2017

I'm not sure why you think this - the purpose of the cryptocurrency exchanges is to handle this...

CE

Colin England Wed 16 Aug 2017

I think this because that's what's happening. In fact, doing that is precisely the purpose of this thread. Being crypto-currency doesn't change that.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Thu 17 Aug 2017

Hmm, I see where Colin is coming from ... but if we took it a step further ... i.e. our current currency system is very very flawed, so let's just let it fall over and return to old fashioned bartering .. THEN would cryptocurrency make some sense? It would mean that we would have to back our currency with something though ... a favour of some sort ...

SD

Suzie Dawson Thu 17 Aug 2017

"And the reason why it doesn't work is because everyone will create their own currency"

this is why the exchanges exist... there can be infinite coins but the exchanges control the values and the validations are all open source and the blockchain unhackable, which makes it far more secure

and yes everyone can create their own coins but they can't assign their own value because the exchange value supersedes it

ie. if people don't trade it, there are no validations, and therefore no value

AG

Aaron Gray Thu 17 Aug 2017

Yeah the main problem with a new crypto currency is establishing value. The other issue is the BlockChain is by no means Green or good for the planet.

BB

Blake Bedford-Palmer Thu 17 Aug 2017

It can be green, depends what the miners power their gear by. Yep, the market decides the value and it can fluctuate

CE

Colin England Thu 17 Aug 2017

and yes everyone can create their own coins but they can't assign their own value because the exchange value supersedes it

And that goes against economics. Not the stuff taught in universities either but actual, real economics.

Exchange rates shouldn't be set by people's willingness to buy a currency but by the economy behind it and how it trades with other economies. Creating a currency isn't creating an economy.

Again, this thread is proof of just how delusional crypto-currencies are. It's a proposal to create a currency that has absolutely no goods or services to sell.

CE

Colin England Thu 17 Aug 2017

i.e. our current currency system is very very flawed, so let's just let it fall over and return to old fashioned bartering

Our present system is flawed. In fact, it has very similar flaws as crypto-currency as the private banks create money ex nihilo on the back of the same assets that are already in place causing massive inflation.

But there's no such thing as old fashioned barter. That's a myth made up by economists to try to explain where trade and money came from.

TH

Tane Harre Fri 18 Aug 2017

It's a pity there isn't a way to tie the currency to privacy somehow...

MM

Miriam Mallinder Fri 18 Aug 2017

no such thing as barter? how come? When my good friend moved to Blenheim about 20 years ago she explained how they were all doing it there .. she is a good cook and swapped preserves for fresh vege etc etc etc. But yes, there was real value behind each exchange.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Fri 18 Aug 2017

too deep Tane, my head hurts now!

MI

Mathew Innes Fri 18 Aug 2017

how much do i have to invest to get it started?

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Suzie Dawson Fri 18 Aug 2017

just because we haven't discussed the value proposition yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist :) this thread is researching ICO's and how cryptocurrencies and blockchain work

AG

Aaron Gray Fri 18 Aug 2017

Doing Merkle trees of double SHA256's is never green !

CE

Colin England Fri 18 Aug 2017

I said old fashioned barter. Such exchange never existed in history. It's a modern invention.

I posted a link on it a couple of weeks back.

MM

Miriam Mallinder Sat 19 Aug 2017

I didn't see the link, therefore I still don't understand.

SD

Suzie Dawson Sat 19 Aug 2017

patience :) step 1 is sorting the architecture, reading the develop docs, working out how we can do this... writing the white paper, creating the pre-offering etc...

IA

idiom axiom Mon 21 Aug 2017

Cash ties currency to privacy.

Crypto-currency is about proving with mathematics exactly where each piece of the currency went and what is was spent on forever. You cannot lie about where your money came from or where it went. In fact anyone else can check at any time.

The backstop of any fiat currency is paying your taxes in it. Anything else is a bubble.

Also blockchain in its current incarnations are super not green and super not private.

Government bitcoin? Did you trade with an unregistered wallet? Instant IRD audit. Prove where it went or go to jail.

Want capital gains taxes? Better record every transaction in and out of coins and figure out if you made a profit, yay taxes. Didn't record all the transactions? Instant IRD audit. Prove where it went or go to jail.

You won't go to jail for the trades, but for lying to the IRD when they show you how blockchain records your every move by design.

Its why businesses like Ethereum for tracking stock.

SD

Suzie Dawson Mon 21 Aug 2017

Bitcoin yes but solutions like Zcash are absolutely private

IA

idiom axiom Mon 21 Aug 2017

"If someone had access to the secret randomness used to generate these parameters, they would be able to create false proofs that would look valid to the verifier. For Zcash, this would mean the malicious party could create counterfeit coins. To prevent this from ever happening, Zcash generated the public parameters through an elaborate, multi-party ceremony."

Which absolutely no organisation in the world has the werewithal to infiltrate.

But again, misses the point of the government being able to just ask for proof of transactions and you having to cough up. Its a lot of work to be back at using cash.

https://xkcd.com/538/

I can see the government approving a Zcash system where the government creates the general parameters. Then the government and only the government can track everything.

Perfect Overlordness.

CE

Colin England Tue 22 Aug 2017

And all of that is a problem how?
Is it that you're in favour of crime?

IA

idiom axiom Wed 23 Aug 2017

We have an anti-spying bill as our major kick.

M

Martyn Wed 23 Aug 2017

I'm for this. I can't see a proposal in this thread for how this might work in practice though. @suziedawson did you have something in mind?

SD

Suzie Dawson Thu 24 Aug 2017

the biggest criminals are in government

SD

Suzie Dawson Thu 24 Aug 2017

basically we need to write a value proposition/white paper and work out what is technically feasible for us before we can progress it. is on the agenda!

MI

Mathew Innes Thu 24 Aug 2017

I think i know what you guys mean, or Does this mean that Our Own country(all our people) invests in itself, Paying Members (tax payers) invest in their locally owned resources (taking control) and share those resources locally, employment for local communities are to provide the process in which making sure their local area is up providing each connected community able to trade in products or services, produce or labour and in investing their personal "land, labour etc etc" everything they have becomes to back up the value of their and our currency. our Bitnz ?? or is the internet party becoming the bank, that kiwis invest in? (so to speak) just in case i mistranslated.

CE

Colin England Fri 25 Aug 2017

this thread is about the IP creating its own currency to fund itself.

IA

idiom axiom Fri 25 Aug 2017

Does that not neatly sum up what a total ponzi crypto-currencies are?

JB

Jo Booth Sun 27 Aug 2017

"Total ponzi" is probably a way of describing any speculative investment. Our coin will be funding the campaign efforts here to UpdateNZ so if that's a worthwhile effort - less speculative I'd say.

CE

Colin England Sun 27 Aug 2017

Yes.

CE

Colin England Sun 27 Aug 2017

Nope, still a Ponzi Scheme. Everyone being able to make their own currencies will crash the economy. We've seen this before.

CS

Colin Smith Thu 14 Sep 2017

Podcasts: (use google to find the stream)

“Unchained: Big Ideas from the Worlds of Blockchain”

“Epicenter – Podcast on Blockchain…”

“The Ether Review”

“Governing the Future”

“Crypto Voices”

“The Blockchain Show”

“The Cryptoverse”

“The Let’s Talk Bitcoin Network” (quite a few random podcasts and not all related to Bitcoin, but occasionally something good to listen to)

“Governing the Future”

“Around the Coin”

“Future Thinkers Podcast” (mainly for people who wear tinfoil hats, but can be interesting)

“WSJ The Future of Everything” (general tech)

“Spark from CBC Radio” (general tech)

“Rebank: Banking the Future” (for those interested in finance)

“99% Invisible” and “Planet Money” (not specifically tech podcasts, but both are really worth listening to)

“Revisionist History” (not tech, if you don’t like Malcolm Gladwell don’t listen to it)

Here's the talk Vitalik Buterin, founder of Ethereum, gave at the BlockchainLabs conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH9nMKIHfAE

W

WeirdRat Fri 6 Apr 2018

The problem with current Cryptos is that their value still depends on fiat-money and people never use them to pay with but wait to become rich ! Internet Partys can only become successful - worldwide - if they build their own closed system without depending on fiat money, social networks like facebook and monsters like google. The only way to attack the system is to attack the finance-and economy system of the fiat-money ! If an online-market-money-socialnetwork-system independent from fiat money can take out 2-4 % of the economical circle in most nations the money- and economy-growth -system will collapse !! So it takes a complete system, both for a cryptocoin one can really pay with NOT depending on fiatmoney AND a market-and socialnetwork system independent from the existing ones. I tested steemit but forget it ... @suziedawson please contact me, I already established Internet Party Austria and urgently need such a system !!!

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WeirdRat Fri 6 Apr 2018

who has the right to tell me whats legal and illegal ? The current owners of fiat money are the worst criminals ever and they want to tell me whats illegal ? Read the article about the Wörgl money experiment in the 30s - if we can make it to transfer this to the internet nobody could attack it ! http://www.lietaer.com/2010/03/the-worgl-experiment/

MM

Miriam Mallinder Fri 6 Apr 2018

The economy of 'growth' based on 'faith in the future' has been around for 500 years. Most of us do it ... we get mortgages for our houses based on the premise that in 10 - 20 years time what we are paying for the mortgage is not as 'much' as what it is today, due to us earning more, currency being worth less, etc. We have now got to the stage of realisation that the world cannot sustain this. We actually need to stop having babies for a while. The Chinese got it right (to an extent) with their one child policy for a while. If not that, then we need to be producing what we need and living sustainably. (go electric cars and Tesla's inventions!) ... but if we do not do that, and the growth mind set either continues or crashes, it is going to be nasty. I digress. Crypto currencies are based on the SAME growth mindset / faith in the future that we have been operating for all this time. So IMHO they are not the answer. They are a part of the problem.

MW

Marc Whinery Wed 22 Aug 2018

The government, through Measurement Standards Laboratory, maintains public NTP servers. These are government assets, used by the people.

So, make the same, as the blockchain servers.

Bitcoin, is evil. The tech and design is specifically anti-environmental. It rewards destruction of power, and requires massive power to keep it going. Small changes to how it works would reduce power usage. The problem is, that you either have massive hyper-inflation, or you have to lock the servers to a non-group model.

If the Government created a crypto currency, and eliminated the ability for anyone to ever mine it, and only the government could mine the currency, and only the government can authenticate transactions, then you have the best of both worlds, unless you think that the government will destroy the currency.

Even with 100% of the transaction servers being government-owned, it is still 100% anonymous. Anyone can "create" a wallet. For free. With no identity required. Then trade KiwiCoin into and out of the wallet without their identity being known. It would be exactly as "anonymous" as Bitcoin. But trading the anti-environment stance of Bitcoin for a centralized system.

And all crypto currencies are fiat currencies, so none "fix" that problem. In all cases, the value is derived from an arbitrary assignment of value by the "market".

PRP

Pirate Radio Podcasts Mon 10 Sep 2018

@suziedawson All we need atm is somebody to WRITE our code, and then we're OFF 2 the races! #WPRPN