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Discussion Thread on the use of 1080 in New Zealand

DG
Daymond Goulder-Horobin Public Seen by 335

I am curious to know the membership's position on the usage of 1080 in New Zealand. There is a strong divide about its usage and whether it should be banned and reverted to Trapping or other safer methods, or whether 1080 "Does the Job".

I note that based on discussions I have had that it is clear the mainstream published science supports the usage of 1080 with all the major parties in agreement, perhaps a few searching or being open to alternatives to some extent. However, I also consider many observations of what 1080 seems to have done with some observing that it has damaged and destroyed aspects of wildlife as well as unreasonable collateral damage from its usage based on personal observations made by farmers and onlookers.

Thus we have a classic problem where the published and peer-reviewed science is not matching what some of us are actually seeing. So what do you guys think? I am hesitant to finish a write up of our approach to 1080 without support from the membership given the nature of the subject. Also share personal observations as well and "Viable" alternatives as they say in the mainstream if you have them.

GA

Geoff Anderson Wed 21 Nov 2018

Incubator Discussion Thread on the use of 1080 (Food for thought)
This is a bigger question than just 'should we use 1080 or ban it'.
So ‘trying to understand it…’
1 There is a discussion on the target animals, and whether 1080 is the appropriate poison to use for each, and whether there are alternative methods in a case by case.
Two lists…All the target animals…The alternatives for each.
This may also cover the methods of its use.
2 The second question is persistence; do just the target animals get killed or does it kill unintended targets as well. Both as other animals & birds consuming the poison directly and also by getting into the food chain.
E.g. where a hawk consumes a dead rabbit, stoat or possum, originally killed by 1080.
And how many layers of the food chain this affects.

Negative anecdotal statements: My observations…
When 1080 is laid in the catchment areas of West Coast rivers, the whitebait disappear for 3 years.
One also notices the sudden decline of bird call from Ruru’s, Weka’s & Kea’s etc

Lists of pests: (feel free to add to these lists)
Mice, rats, stoats & ferrets, rabbits hares & possums, pigs goats & deer (Humans?).
Note: Ferrets, stoats, hawks & falcons, individually kill more rabbits each year than most sports shooters.

We live in an ecco-system where all life eats other life.
The reason they are called pests:
These introduced animals change the ecco system from what it was before we arrived and compete with us.
From time to time they also act as carriers of diseases like TB and so affect our animal crops and cause health risks to us.
We are unable to eliminate them entirely but over the last 150 years have been relatively successful in controlling them.
Each target animal has its own distinct behaviours allowing some methods to be successful and others not.
Also some effective methods are far more cruel than other methods.
Effectively killing everything in the forest is different than effectively killing just the target animals.
1080 is the former and it doesn’t do the job in a kind way compared to some alternative poisons.

The more ecco friendly alternatives are less financially efficient and possibly less politically correct. E.g. The use of lots of manpower to shoot trap, fumigate lay bait etc.
Going off subject making a quick argument for manpower: If everyone worked and no-one was unemployed… The tax take would be higher and social expenditure lower, wages would rise and society would have more people who felt useful. Good for NZ.

AJ

Annette Joel Wed 5 Dec 2018

I like your attitude - I would be grateful if the relationship between the UNITED NATIONS agendas and PESTS and 1080 could be considered together. Is it possible to be PEST free? Who decides what is a PEST? Have we got any independent (from our govt.) documentation from an expert stating that we need to become part of PEST FREE?
It is possible that when these questions are understood and answered the issue of 1080 will not need any consideration.
The lack of any independant testing on humans for 1080 is a big concern - just a thought -

SD

Stephen Dickson Sun 9 Dec 2018

Absolutely there is secondary poisoning, that includes native hawks etc.
I have worked with 1080 often (forced to)
Here is a fact for everyone to consider, the people that hate 1080 the most are the people that have worked with it. With good reason, they have seen what it does and how indiscriminate it is. Even Pindone has a large secondary poisoning effect and it is more humane than 1080.
Another one we are about to lift the lid on is Brodifacoum. Massive misuse with this product as well.

You will note the people that back it are all paid by govt, the one independent paper is very much against it. I wonder what that is all about?...
There is a massive amount of corruption and lies surrounding poisons and there use in this country. That is fact.
Incompetence in its use is also massive. Never poison in September to December as it will fail. That is a guarantee. January to April, maybe IF conditions are right, maybe. All 1080 carrot work should be done in July to early August, oats latish summer if it's been dry and not much food around.
When do doc poison? Whenever the fuck they like. They will and do in fact poison just to spend a budget as they worry they will lose the money.
How fucked up is that?

Currently doc and ospri (formally TBfree) both do whatever they want.
They are NOT accountable to anyone.
Their processes are NOT accountable.
Their methods are NOT accountable.
Think about this. They pore poisons, not just 1080 onto this country. This costs a massive amount of money BUT they don't have to prove it was money well spent to anyone. There is so much underhanded stuff going on and not one cent has to be accounted for.
I do know it is a very corrupt system, all funded by govt.

AJ

Annette Joel Thu 22 Nov 2018

Please BAN 1080 - I am not going to go into all the reasons here - become informed - we are not GOD - try to understand evolution and ecology - read Dr Fiona M F McQueen's book - "The Quiet Forest" The 1080 issue is extremely large.

We will never be completely pest free
we will and are killing our protected species including biota - without the good bacteria there is not the ability for trees and plants to uptake neutriants and our water is being contaminated/poisoned.
There is NO antidote, 1080 is a weapon of mass destruction - even Hitler decided not to use is as it was too dangerous. It is extremely cruel-
The use of 1080 to eliminate so called pests is about our Govt making money for an SOE without the mandate of the people-
Also about the United nations agendas that the people of NZ do NOT know anything about.
It has been used in NZ for 60 yrs and has not been successful -although the illnesses that it causes are the highest in the world in NZ.
We have had shipments of exports returned to NZ because of high levels of 1080 -
Our image as an export nation is contaminated - people overseas do NOT believe our Govt's propaganda - and this 1080 issue is the biggest PROPAGANDA there ever has been in NZ and maybe the world. Tourists have written to our Govt saying t hey are not coming back because of this issue.

Evolution moves foward - NOT bacwards!!
Possums do not spread TB - our govt. depts have been injecting possums with TB and then releasing them into areas that were TB free to try to keep this business going -
NZ has currently got a TB free status.
The colateral damage as a result of 1080 use in NZ is far too high esp. when it is killing what we want to protect including people.
Sorry about the spelling - I could go on and on -

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 23 Nov 2018

I am considering holding a poll, perhaps during the Internet Party Annual General Meeting coming up in regards to our viewpoint on 1080. I am comfortable supporting the Ban 1080 movement if the membership supports the campaign as I have seen a number of problems based on what friends and family have seen with its usage. However, I will not go "Rambo" if I start the official support only to find the membership doesn't support the campaign.

I am keen to hear the opinions on this from anyone in the party, whether "Current member" or "Legacy member". Personal Observations versus The Mainstream Published Science seems to be the game I am observing at the moment.

Note - a Current Member is someone that has paid their membership fee within the last 3 years. Please Contact me either over the Internet Party Discord or email the membership at members@internet.org.nz to confirm or re-fill out our online application form. $1 membership btw.

AJ

Annette Joel Fri 23 Nov 2018

with the greatest of respect there have been numerous poles done on this
subject – over the decades – even by DOC itself -
the latest has 85% of people in NZ are OPPOSED to the use of 1080 in our
country. And this is growing by the day as more people become exposed to the
effects of this extremely toxic neurotoxin that has NO antidote and is also very
difficult to have any independent testing done on it.
One needs to base ones opinion on real facts – as opposed to DOC and/or
F&B’s PROPAGANDA or any person who is on the govt. gravy train -

Any political party who cannot see:
* the consequences and unnecessary collateral damage NZ is
suffering as a result of the use of 1080 in our country – that cannot see

  • what is taking place as a result of our SOE’s being focused on
    profit overriding the pollution of our environment when it has been
    happening for over 65yrs

  • that thinks having a WAR against nature, against ecology and
    against evolution with the most toxic substance known to man is a
    good thing-

  • That does not understand the relationship between the United
    Nations agendas we have been signed up to and PEST
    FREE without the mandate of the people

must be blind.

Yes, this will be a test for the party and it’s values - you cannot
make this a value if the membership does not support this issue at an AGM
I would like to suggest that the large number of people who oppose the use
of 1080 in NZ would not support or pay $1 to any party that does NOT agree with
them.

This issue needs to be based on FACT and NOT PROPAGANDA!!!

Please keep me informed.
best wishes,
Annette Joel.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 23 Nov 2018

If the membership wants us to move on the campaign to Ban 1080, then we do it. I think quite a few including our former Party Leader Suzie Dawson and some of our policy guys are against the usage. I would like to make our position concrete at the AGM if possible so if we start campaigning, we don't want members out of touch questioning why we are doing something and not being able to show the members supporting the move.

Its just the process we have to follow with something like this.

GA

Geoff Anderson Fri 23 Nov 2018

I agree with Annette Joel’s initial statements and assessment: We are one of the only countries in the world that still allow 1080 but as first responder I didn’t want to “leap”, preferring to create discussion.

Identifying the problems:
1: Defining the concept of efficiency.
The original thread referenced an apparent conflict between “science” and ‘farmers & other observers’.
“Efficiency / cost of killing the pests” verses “overkill & long term contamination of the ecco system” are different arguments. Killing everything makes a mockery of trying to identify what animals are pests.

2 Cruelty is a social construct of pain & duration, where we emphatically avoid pain ourselves, but all pest destruction involves some level of cruelty. We could list them in order but it is also a different argument than either “Efficiency” or “Overkill”.

3 Fact: Pests can’t be removed easily with a single tool without getting the non target species.
Each tool has pros & cons, but money / cost is how we define them.

I favor money being put into competitions to develop ecco friendly tools and methods.
The internet can be used to find & connect these budding ideas & methods.
Judge the ideas by these points of identifying the target by its unique behavior, by low cruelty, by low impact on the rest of the environment.
The right ideas do more than just save money, they inform & raise awareness in the young.
They present a socially responsible image of NZ to the world.
Build a generation of informed problem solving children and we wont have to run around banning, as such problems will be transcended.
(But yes, “1080 no”)

MB

Mason Bee Sat 24 Nov 2018

I would prefer a beyond 1080 approach. Eg; Genetic engineering research and development.

I am not a huge fan of the governments review of 1080 use primarily due to the pain and suffering it causes in animals which it has glossed over by referencing other papers which make it seem as though it is moderately humane when in fact the referenced paper referred to the potential welfare compromise as severe.

I also have concerns that much of the research into 1080 has been done by departments already invested in it. DOC especially appears to have a strong internal culture that may create bias in such research. That being said the few papers I have read appears to be reasonably solid although they tend to reference previous papers that may not be.

I agree with Annette that many visitors from overseas think we are bonkers to be dropping poison all over the place.

(Edited as anecdotal)

MB

Mason Bee Sat 24 Nov 2018

That was not intended as inflammatory (last paragraph). Happy to edit it out if wanted.

AJ

Annette Joel Sun 25 Nov 2018

see Dr. Joe Pollard www;1080science .co.nz Whiting O'Keefe,Q..&Whiting-Okeefe
yes, I am very amazed that people have an opinion when they themselves have not done reading and research .

MB

Mason Bee Sun 25 Nov 2018

I'm sorry. I haven't been able to find any papers by Dr. Joe Pollard on 1080 by searching the site. I did read the Okeefe submission for the review (2007) as it was talked about at the time.

Is this the material you are referring too?

AJ

Annette Joel Sun 25 Nov 2018

there is a whole website 1080science.co.nz all done by Dr Joe Pollard - in her own time and at her own expense - anyone can ask questions or whatever - all papers can be seen there - good luck

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Sun 25 Nov 2018

Its a great site. And much different conclusions from what the mainstream is reaching.

AJ

Annette Joel Mon 26 Nov 2018

Mason Bee - if you have evidence that your last paragraph is true leave it - on the other hand I find it to just be your personal perspective that does not focus on the actual issues - Just my personal opinion

KW

Kathy White Sun 2 Dec 2018

Jo Pollard put together the site that indexed the 2007 ERMA review of 1080. www.1080science.co.nz. She also has her own articles on that site and if you search scoop, you'll find some important press releases, such as the one on the national poison centre and Otago University study on dog deaths through 1080. It showed how wildly inaccurate the PCE comments were.

AJ

Annette Joel Sun 25 Nov 2018

there are numerous books written by very well qualified people on the subject of 1080 in NZ published by Tross publishing PO Box 22 143, Khandallah, Wwllington, NZ

If one has not seen with their own eyes the deverstation caused by 1080 in NZ and the untruths told by our Govt with the use of our moneys - the biggest PROPAGANDA EVER IN OUR COUNTRY and maybe the world - all one can do is read what has been put out there by extremely well qualified people - and also keep in mind the fact that DOC and F&B have NO base line data to actually show that there is a need for all this inhumane killing/war - and one needs to ask why has our Govt released possums that they infected into possum free areas? IMO this is a money making scheme for an SOE without a mandate from the people of NZ and in time our water and most species and biota will be effected to an extreme extent. This is what I see living in an area that has been poisoned with 1080 for many decades. We in NZ are being use as an experiment and it does seem to involve the United Nations Agendas. This sounds far fetched I know. Just look at what we have been signed up to. Such a shame that so many people in NZ do not become informed.

Best wishes -

MB

Mason Bee Sun 2 Dec 2018

On the money making part. How are they making money?

KW

Kathy White Sun 2 Dec 2018

The government owns the factory that manufactures toxic baits. Not just 1080 baits, but also anticoagulants like Pestoff. The SOE is called Orillion. It used to be called Animal Control Products. A wide number of agencies and businesses in NZ purchase those poison baits. They are also sold overseas along with companies selling expertise in island eradications. There are rumours about international chemical companies "investing" here. I don't know enough to comment on that.

AJ

Annette Joel Sun 25 Nov 2018

this is a huge subject and the more one gets into it the more questions there are - I understand how difficult it is to get a consensus - how can the Govt. back down now??

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Mon 26 Nov 2018

The Govt. can call anything "Fake News", "Inept Analysis" and get away from any confrontation of what is happening around them. Its the same with the CPTPP, the Internet party submitted to Parliament which included an Oral over the phone submission but they basically just swooshed right past it.

I loathe a Government that ignores the majority of its subjects. Its a pretty privileged right to override the will of the people when you think information is bad but they need to actually consider why so many are against 1080 and many similar problems rather than jump to the conclusion of "Fake News".

KW

Kathy White Sat 1 Dec 2018

There are so many possible things to say here but I will restrict it to three. (1) I reviewed the medical notes of the poisoned family in Putaruru. Professor Ian Shaw, toxicologist from Canterbury University wrote to me to say he believed this was a case of 1080 poisoning based on the recorded symptoms and the interviews with the family. Unfortunately the DHB failed to test for 1080 within the timeframe for a valid result even though 1080 was in their working diagnosis from day one. The risk of 1080 in wild kai and in livestock should be a major concern for new Zealanders because poison drops happen very close to people's homes and in waterways all across New Zealand. (2) The message consistently delivered to all decision-makers, including me, is that poisoning agencies are very precise with their GPS technology and that poison baits are sowed precisely where they should be. Check out the EPA 1080 annual report for 2016 and you'll see that a third of operations involved incidents and misapplications of bait. Livestock and pets are regularly poisoned. Look at www.tvwild.co.nz and you'll see official toxin distribution charts that confirm most waterways are poisoned. (3) According to scientists Whiting-Okeefe here hasn't been a net population benefit from pest control operations for a single native species. Some bird species have been in serious decline since we've been using 1080. Kiwi are in decline in all places that have been regularly aerially poisoned. The Ruscoe study, done by Landcare Research scientists in 8 locations across 4 years, revealed many unexpected and unintended negative consequences from pest control. But unfortunately, the government's answer to decline is simply to use more of the same. 1080 causes rat plagues. People throw more toxin at the problem. The ecosystem is seriously out of balance now, and the only thing that will help is to halt this country's addiction to vertebrate toxins and develop a healthier relationship with nature. By the way, the scientist mentioned in a previous post should be Jo Pollard, not Joe.

KW

Kathy White Sat 1 Dec 2018

One other thing that is very important is the connection between 1080 and water quality. The ERMA review in 2007 identified 1080 toxicity to blue-green algae, duckweed, etc. It also quoted an international study that showed that 1080 causes accumulated citrate and that this affects the composition of algal cells and inhibits nitrogen fixation. Why should we be worried about that? Fluorocitrate is a metabolite of 1080. We don't have a test for fluorocitrate available in NZ, which means we're not measuring something that is potentially affecting nitrogen loss to water. We need research on this. It's the kind of thing that could persuade politicians that 1080 is more dangerous than they thought and they should take another look.

KW

Kathy White Fri 7 Dec 2018

Just checked my comment about the test for fluorocitrate not being available in new zealand. Someone who used to work at Landcare Research tells me the test can be done here but it's more complicated and requires special procedures - virtually no one asks for it to be done. Nitrogen fixation is a very important thing. We are spending billions of dollars trying to reduce loss of nitrogen to water. This research into fluorocitrate and nitrogen fixation needs to be done in NZ but they need to start doing fluorocitrate tests to get the data before they can do this.

KW

Kathy White Sat 1 Dec 2018

Based on what I currently know, I believe 1080 should be banned.

GA

Geoff Anderson Mon 3 Dec 2018

Is it agreed(?); that the 4 of us who have responded, haven’t a love of 1080, and this consensus of 4 or 5 would like to see it banned?
(I would like to see its use dropped by 99%) and others want it gone entirely with a vengeance (close enough).
I think that the argument that “science is overwhelmingly in favor of its use”, is a house of cards, that would fall over with a nudge. (It is banned in so many countries!)
Kathy White has provided a motive as to why real observations and official literature differ, and I’m sure there are other reasons.

This isn’t about convincing politicians; it was about the ‘if/ why, it should or shouldn’t be banned’ and ‘if it was the right idea for the Internet Party ‘to have it or use it, as a policy’.
If it were to become policy, how would that effect the country, do we have a policy about that?
A policy about alternatives; what they might be, and how much they might cost?
So beyond just ‘should it be banned’,… do those participating or the I Party, want to offer more?

(I have a thing- where I talk about the negatives, only to expose solutions)

It is my perception that the Internet Party can be different in its approach than a normal political party.
The internet is a place of ideas, a place of communication. A place of public opinion.
Regardless of who makes a decision, the decision is always easier if there is an alternative, to replace that which is being taken away. I’m sure there are some good ideas in among 4.5 million New Zealanders…
Does the Internet Party have a way of asking them?
Sorry I was just feeling a little frustrated that only 4 answered Daymond s call, on a subject that affects so many.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Tue 4 Dec 2018

There are a number of different approaches.

Some people want to find alternatives before banning 1080. Some want to Ban it immediately regardless of whether alternatives exist at the time. And others want to Ban any attempts at controlling the wildlife numbers altogether.

In fact, NZ First had the original angle to search for an alternative to 1080 but have since seemed to have gone back on that.

Basically the Internet Party would have to do determine whether we should be trying to get rid of 1080, and then determine the approach taken in the finer details in terms of finding/waiting for alternatives to it.

That is what makes IP different in that we consider the observations of everyone as opposed to simply what the scientific consensus is. Though it would be relaxing to just do what the consensus is, it is quite clear from what I have been seeing on a number of occasions that it would not be effective.

Or maybe it is an issue with how it is applied, for instance perhaps ban aerial drops and maybe only have strict surgical application of 1080. Might cost more but what value do you place on the environment?

GA

Geoff Anderson Tue 4 Dec 2018

I place high value on the environment and 1080 isn’t good for it.
…Yes it’s also about the whole sale dropping of it or any other nasty upon the land.
Feet on ground can use the same poisons but do it far more accurately… but still 1080 is an indiscriminate nasty one, with residues that don’t break down.

Policy propositions;
Setting a date where it must be gone by, seems a solid first step.
Secondly I would set up environmental competitions in schools to raise awareness and gather ideas.
$500 or $1000 prizes and a website to publish the ideas and hail the inventors as ecco heros.

Schools are always looking for things to involve the children.
Its cheaper than a single formal science report but creates awareness and promotes the NZ Internet party as doers.

Public awareness and opposition and the seeking of alternatives are required to get something like this going.

SD

Stephen Dickson Sat 15 Dec 2018

The alternatives are all ready there.
If doc would stop lying about the per hectare cost people would realize the bullshit going on.
Without digging out the OIAs around five years ago they were spending $55 a hectare.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin started a poll Fri 14 Dec 2018

How should we go about handling the issue of 1080 - In-depth Poll Closed Thu 31 Jan 2019

I have left this to an open poll as there are many ways to go about dealing with 1080. I back the Integrity of the Internet Party membership and everyone's vote count. you may put your own suggestion in if I have missed something.

If this format is unsuitable pls advise, I would rather something further than a simple Yes/No if the membership felt that way.

4 - A Full Ban on 1080 ASAP
0 - Have a suitable alternative to 1080 before proceeding with a ban
1 - Only Ban 1080 Airdrops and consider allowing surgical implementation on the ground
0 - Do Nothing
0 - Ban poisons for pest control
JB

Jo Booth Fri 14 Dec 2018

Only Ban 1080 Airdrops and consider allowing surgical implementation on the ground

I’m keen to see effective alternatives - so see an outright ban as impractical in short term. Lets get the poison restricted and limited use rather than tossing it to the winds

MB

Mason Bee Sat 15 Dec 2018

A Full Ban on 1080 ASAP

With an independent foreign scientific investigation (not just a review of the current papers).

SD

Stephen Dickson Sat 15 Dec 2018

Nothing in this poll for me, its not just 1080 being badly misused.

GA

Geoff Anderson Sat 15 Dec 2018

A Full Ban on 1080 ASAP

A full ban forces the issue of alternatives, many of which are already known.
Waiting for alternatives is a delaying tactic that may take years or forever.

AJ

Annette Joel Sat 15 Dec 2018

A Full Ban on 1080 ASAP
KW

Kathy White Mon 17 Dec 2018

A Full Ban on 1080 ASAP

I think 1080 is doing a huge amount of harm and it needs to be stopped immediately.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 14 Dec 2018

I allowed multiple choice so one could vote for two options, people should be able to add there own options as well. This is a dynamic poll.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Sat 15 Dec 2018

Your comments are very important for further insight that we can use btw.

GA

Geoff Anderson Sat 15 Dec 2018

I’ve already stated that in my opinion, ‘1080 is nasty and needs to be phased out ASAP’, but it’s just as important to get viable alternatives sorted.
‘No pest control’ only appeals to non farmers.

1080 is banned in most countries because the science has been known for 70 yrs. So I don’t understand what this -scientific consensus of support is.? Surely it is bean counter support only.
DOC do lots of good but have some history of damage due to ‘politically correct decisions to simple problems’ and some dubious political affiliations. (No govt. body is perfect)

It always comes back to “the people” and that’s what’s best for the country.
Surely there is no argument that 1080 is good for people? There are plenty of known alternatives.
I don’t see money as the issue, as money is always available when necessary.
Feet on ground costs but it gets unskilled people off benefits.
Workers pay taxes and spend more money and it all goes round.
Jobs give self respect and motivation and improve expectations.
Paying people to do nothing is nuts, a total loss. 12 workers to support 1 unemployed. Getting them to do a govt subsidized job for the country reduces those numbers.

DG

Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 18 Jan 2019

If the membership desires us to take an Anti-1080 position, I want the best team available. In particular I want to build a database of studies that have been conducted on 1080, and then contrast the evidence on both sides, I am thinking of making an Ethercalc and then have it be available to be edited by the membership like a collaboration.

Link
https://ethercalc.net/

For this I would imply a few different models be set on each output when we analyze the papers, for one model we can assume that the evidence used in each paper is correct initially, and perhaps a few more once I or other members come up with some.

We would classify each piece of evidence, some may be Critical analysis of the literature while others may be studies conducted by anyone, or even simple observations by a farmer seeing one of his animals die by ingestion of 1080.

We shouldn't go into this blind, so its good to have studies to reference.