Loomio

Restart: A distribution key for incoming member contributions

JVO
Jan Van Opstal Public Seen by 395

As hijacking a proposal before a open discussion with arguments is not a good way to clear out .....

I would like to restart in the drafting zone the discussion of a distribution key for incoming membership fee's from the pirates between the different crews.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal started a proposal Thu 8 Sep 2016

Let's endorse this to the drafting zone for a a open discussion Closed Thu 8 Sep 2016

Outcome
by Vincent Tue 25 Apr 2017

3 pirates agree. Drafting.

A automatic distribution key seems to me important in order to have fair way of working towards the future.... (not with a small group who make arbitrary descissions)

Maybe today it is a about 150 members/ 1 e = 150 € (peanuts)
but there are other opinions of rising the membership....
and if we getopinated ( ;-) ) and organised as the maffia ;-)

in a few months this could be 1000 members / 12 € = 12.000 Euro

So it seems fair to me to make as soon as possible a good agreement how the income will benefit the pirates in global. A fixed key will supply all crews with funding and they can take care to use it on their best intentions ...

Let's get rid of control freaks and move towards working together to win the next elections or at least promote our views for real liquid open direct ....democracy

Results
Agree - 3
Abstain - 3
Disagree - 3
Block - 3
3 people have voted (6%)
JVO

Jan Van Opstal
Agree
Thu 8 Sep 2016

hope you to :-)

V

Vincent
Agree
Thu 8 Sep 2016

I agree to formalize this idea.

JD

Jonas Degrave
Agree
Thu 8 Sep 2016

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Fri 9 Sep 2016

Time to draft.... for this one.... it is all about financial engineering ...

this can be part as a article for the asbl/vzw or for the existing structure

As are intention is to participate to the elections ... it would help if we get organised ;-)
In order to win time, I do propose a principal distribution of Pirate membership fee's towards the different Pirate crews. ( the same principle could be applied to other income as well, but is not part of this proposal)

In stead of a 2 stage distribution (proposal for the vzw-asbl) a more to the Belgium elections adapted form will serve better our needs.

http://www.vlaanderen.be/nl/vlaams-parlement/verkiezingen/de-organisatie-van-verkiezingen-belgie

so a division in 5 looks the most ideal.

European
Federal
Regional
Provincial
Town

Where local crews have full access and free use of this income, all locals crews of a province have access to the provincial income and so on...

This way of working is intended to have a fair redistribution system for all. It should improve a faster way of making decisions (how much is available) and improve a righteous feel.

Any comments?

the next question is the ratio....

PS

Pat Seynaeve Fri 9 Sep 2016

A member fee of 1€/month of 12€/month is a minimum.
Paying a fee is a transaction between 2 entities: the members vs the pirate party.
These two entities have the same rights to decide about the destination.
Any fair distribution of an amount ends up in a fifty/fifty:
1 part donator's choice, 1 part receiver's choice.
Receiver's (=PirateParty)
=> National has to provide 5 levels as Jan Van Opstal proposed.
(grouped commands are cheaper & better deals)
Donator Choice can be National / Local / Not Specified
=> 50% National / 50% Local / 25% National+25% Local (of total amount).
So every payment will be divided in 4.
local <=> national
0% <=> 25%+25%+25%+25%
25% <=> 25%+25%+25%
50% <=> 25%+25%

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Fri 9 Sep 2016

The choice to become member of the Pirates is for 100% free on the side of the person.
the division is 100 % up to all the members of the group ? The new member has only 1 vote as any others to decide the way of working?

JV

Jov Ver Fri 9 Sep 2016

This is about membership fee redistribution if I understand well.

I'd keep it simple: crew level and national ("asbl/vzw") level.

2/3's goes to the crew of choice of contributing pirate.
1/3 remains national for IT, common products (flyers, posters, flags, pens...), national / federal / European campaigns etc.

Why divide into five, when we can not even reach an easy consensus on one?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Fri 9 Sep 2016

Yes it is about that, you understanding is correct.

The reason to divide in 5 has is roots in the Belgium political structure. We need to foresee a budget flow to respond to all this aspects.

It is not only about funding the local crew for the upcoming local elections. In the same time provincial elections will be held. So for example al crews in the province of Antwerp need to be able to have a budget for that level. Where the decisions has to be made between all the crews of the Antwerp province.... for the moment maybe only 2 or 3 but next year maybe ???

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_gemeenten_naar_bestuurlijke_indeling

The same apply to higher levels. We do not know today what election will occurs first...

This proposition is just about avoiding recurring discussions.

"Why divide into five, when we can not even reach an easy consensus on one?"

Maybe with this proposition consensus becomes more in reach because it makes more sense as working model adapted to the reality in Belgium. This discussion is maybe a bit more profound and more complex to conduct now, but will prevent recurring discussions. Making the Pirates free of redundant discussions and more free to focus on other issues as recruiting, promoting etc..

JV

Jov Ver Fri 9 Sep 2016

Making the Pirates free of redundant discussions and more free to focus on other issues as recruiting, promoting etc..

and that is exactly the reason why I'd wish that we'd stop discussing things here and there and everywhere which have already been discussed in numerous meetings which have been documented and even sometimes taped. You have something to add - join the discussion in person, instead of here. Join it in your crew so to say or in the appropriate meetings.

Right. I think I'll take a time-out from Loomio. It makes matters way more complex for the time being than RL meetings and personal calls. I'll focus on the latter two for now.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Fri 9 Sep 2016

Here on Loomio we have a permanent meeting, recorded, open for all to read, argument and vote. There is no rush, no deadline, no pushing ... Anyone can participate without the obligation to invest in carbon polluting transport and travelling time . It is the most best experiment we can make as pirates for who direct or liquid democracy is the goal ...

Loomio is maybe not the ideal platform, but for the moment being it is for free and far more democratic then personal calls and RL meetings....

But that is not the topic. If you think it is to complex.... I can understand you, but the Belgium structure is the way it is. It is not a 2 level structure and a 2 level system will cause conflicts as soon as we need to form crews for provincial elections etc.

Everyone is free to participate or to take time-outs ...

We have already 33 pirates on Loomio .... they all can participate at free will, whenever the have time. They can reflect and make contributions as needed....

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Mon 12 Sep 2016

So i recall the thread.... (because I can not change it in the header)

A distribution key for incoming membership fee's, could be a way to automatic create funds for the whole Pirate tree.

In Belgium we have 5 levels:

L Name........Lists.........Max.Seats

  1. European......(1).................[24]
  2. Federal.........(1).................[71]
  3. Regional.......(3)...............[243]
  4. Province.....(10)...............[738]
  5. City...........(589)..........[13.000] .

Total..............(604)............[14.076]..... (*)

http://www.ibzdgip.fgov.be/result/nl/doc.php?doc=2

For each election level, the Pirates can form election lists....

In order to avoid nepotism and arbitrariness,
long discussions and loss of time ....

A one time agreement could be established promoting confidence and a easy way of working, stimulating to recruit new Pirate members....

Are there objections against a 5 level distribution instead of the 2 level distribution who is now part of the proposition of the Jan Cabouter ASBL-VZW ?

Please argument ....

If no, then are there propsals how this key would look like....

In function of the seats? Or another key ?

( * In de stad Antwerpen zijn er naast provincie- en gemeenteraadsverkiezingen, ook rechtstreekse districtraadsverkiezingen in de 9 districten van deze stad.)

PS

Pat Seynaeve Sat 24 Sep 2016

It seems that once a proposal arrived in another zone, interest is gone

V

Vincent Sat 24 Sep 2016

Yeah, and it seems that once a proposal has been written in the statutes, nobody cares. Better stop here than there.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 24 Sep 2016

Why stop here.? The proposal in the statutes of the ASBL are not refined enough. How will they solve the financing for crews who will go for the province applications.... just abandon those 738 payed positions?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 24 Sep 2016

The Crew in Liege uses Loomio for a longer time. For other crews it is new.... But if it comes to direct democracy for the moment this the only real tool..... 24/24 7/7 open for everyone.... (who as access to the internet)

TF

Thierry Fenasse Fri 25 Nov 2016

FR: Est-ce qu'un modérateur de ce groupe, pourrait déplacer ce fil de discussion vers le groupe parent Permanent Assembly dans le but de supprimer ce sous-groupe Drafting Zone qui rend les choses plus compliquées que nécessaire. Merci

EN: Can a moderator of this group move this thread to the parent Permanent Assembly group in order to delete this subgroup Drafting Zone which makes things more complicated than necessary. Thank you

NL: Sorry, I do not speak Neederlands :crying_cat_face: