Loomio
September 13th, 2017 14:14

Public money? Public code!

Renaud Van Eeckhout
Renaud Van Eeckhout Public Seen by 426

Please read on this website : https://publiccode.eu
C'est en français également.
Het is in nederlands ook.


Waarom is software die geschreven is met belastinggeld niet beschikbaar als Vrije Software?

Wij willen wetgeving die het nodig maakt dat publiek gefinancieerde software geschreven voor de publieke sector beschikbaar gemaakt wordt onder een Vrije en Open Bronlicentie. Als het publiek geld is, dan moet het ook publieke code zijn.

Code die betaald is door iedereen moet beschikbaar zijn voor iedereen!


Pourquoi les logiciels financés par l’impôt ne sont pas publiés sous Licence Libre ?

Nous voulons une législation qui requiert que le logiciel financé par le contribuable pour le secteur public soit disponible publiquement sous une licence de Logiciel Libre et Open Source. S’il s’agit d’argent public, le code devrait être également public.

Le code payé par le peuple devrait être disponible pour le peuple!


There is a possibility to sign it as an organization. So should we sign it as PPBe? (spoiler : I think everyone agrees we should)

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 13th, 2017 14:19

Je suis pour!
I do agree!
Dat vind ik best!

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 13th, 2017 14:26

Same for me, it's obvious but I wonder if someone will be creative enough to come up with an objection :D

Which logo should we use? I'd say this one https://wiki.pirateparty.be/File:Belgium.png as our name appears.

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 13th, 2017 14:29

Sounds best to me!

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 13th, 2017 15:55

I contacted them (to prepare for PPBe signing the open letter) but I got this answer already :

"Unfortunately, we are unable to process your request to be listed as an organisation on our website due to the fact that we are only accepting civil society actors and representatives of Free Software community groups as possible organisational signatories.

As an actor who is engaging in advocacy work for Free Software, we do not necessarily want to associate ourselves with any political movement.

I hope for your understanding in this regard.

I, nevertheless, would like to express once again our appreciation for your support, and would like to kindly ask you to spread the word and incite your individual members to sign our open letter."

:confused:

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 13th, 2017 18:43

Civic society (foundations, ngo, etc) ≠ Political color (whatever the color).
I suppose that they prefer to stay «neutral».

MB

Michel Braibant September 14th, 2017 05:46

An objection? I can do it!
OK, let's imagine you pay for a code with Belgian citizens money. If you make it public, the entire world will use code paid by one country. I am not saying it is bad, I think a lot of people won't be happy to share their money with other people.

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 14th, 2017 07:06

The result (source code > algorithm > services) will become far more then the «money owned and invested by the belgians for the belgians», it will offer the opportunity to others, without any restriction, to experiment our models of organisation and collectivity through «our codes».

About «intellectual ownership» I suggest this interesting spectacle; Un faible degré d'originalité in french.

And the most important issue I see with what you call the Belgian (or Eurepan) citizen money, is that it is not owned by the citizens. It is only usable by them, according to a certain interest rate defined by the central banks. Who says interest rates, says loans. And loans, one day or another, have to be paid off.

Even if a citizen has the right to transform contractually his money to some goods (even a house), he can lose this good or this good can be removed from him, even legally.

Offering the opportunity to free some code, even paid by a certain country and its citizens, it can not be removed to anybody except in a totalitarian states where freedom is abolished.

We are entering in a digital era, we have to change our prisms of thinking, our relation to ownership and our mindsets.

MB

Michel Braibant September 14th, 2017 09:40

OK, consider me as the devil's advocate. And you have to convince people to accept to spend money in open source: your arguments are good but so high-level that nobody will understand. So now, why should I share the keys of my car, my house, etc?

HgO

HgO September 14th, 2017 09:57

Je comprends pas ton contre-argument. L'argent que le gouvernement dépenserait en logiciels libres (et pas open source, c'est différent) serait le même que celui dépensé en logiciels propriétaires. La seule différence est que n'importe qui pourrait avoir accès au code source (à des fins d'étude, mais aussi de contrôle), et pourrait le modifier à ses propres fins. Si une autre nation souhaite utiliser le logiciel, elle devra obligatoirement l'adapter pour ses propres besoins (donc contribuer au développement d'une quelconque manière). Cela pourrait favoriser la coopération entre les pays. Des gens cupides pourraient venir pleurer qu'on aurait pu vendre ces logiciels, mais cela aurait été au profit de sociétés privées capitalistes. Est-ce le monde dont vous rêvez ? Pas moi.

(C'est suffisamment bas niveau pour toi ? :p)

MB

Michel Braibant September 14th, 2017 10:21

Et bien, tu dépenses de l'argent public (national) pour améliorer un logiciel qui sera accessible au niveau mondial sans avoir à payer. Je suis pour le logiciel libre, j'essaie juste de me comporter comme le citoyen lambda qui ne pige rien de vos discussions. Vous devez abaisser le niveau du débat. C'est trop technique et conceptuel.

MB

Michel Braibant September 14th, 2017 10:32

Les geeks ont bien compris l'intérêt, ce sont les autres qu'il faut convaincre. Et puis le texte d'introduction parle bien de publier sous licence libre les logiciels financés par l'impôt.

HgO

HgO September 14th, 2017 20:16

Justement, je ne vois pas le problème, dans la mesure où ce logiciel était de toute façon nécessaire et on aurait donc de toute façon payé pour. La question de rendre un logiciel libre n'est pas vraiment financière.

EDIT: De manière générale, je trouve très réducteur cette vision « comptable » de la société. La question n'est pas « combien ça coûte ? », mais « de quoi avons-nous besoin ? », selon moi. (fin de l'EDIT)

Je ne comprends pas ce que tu ne piges pas (ou ce qu'un citoyen lambda ne pige pas, selon toi) dans nos arguments. À part le "c'est trop technique et conceptuel" qui est à mon sens faux, mais peut-être que c'est une question de goût ?

De toute manière, cela ne m'intéresse pas vraiment de débattre pour débattre :sweat_smile: C'est amusant d'imaginer un contradicteur, mais dans ce contexte je ne sais pas si c'est très productif ?

C'est plus intéressant de savoir si tu es réellement contre la proposition, ou si elle te convient ?

Concernant la réponse que tu as reçue @vanecx , c'est dommage mais compréhensible. Ce n'est pas nouveau que le fait d'être un parti politique ferme des portes... Néanmoins, cela ne nous empêche pas de faire la promotion de cette pétition à l'échelle du parti (via les réseaux sociaux, etc.)

MB

Michel Braibant September 14th, 2017 21:17

En fait, je pense que le parti pirate doit vulgariser son discours dans les matières technologiques. Je pense qu'encore une fois, le parti est trop en avance par rapport à la société. Il faut informer sur les risques que les GAFAM constituent, la dépendance que l'on développe, et du coup, pourquoi il faut développer le libre.

Je rajoute... Google, Facebook, quels dangers pour la vie privée ? Amazon, quel danger pour le commerce de proximité ? Le dossier médical informatisé, bien ou pas bien ? Tout cela est notre avenir et va radicalement changer notre vie. Mais pour que le message passe, je pense qu'il est nécessaire d'essayer de rendre les choses concrètes, moins techniques. Je comprends tout ce que vous dites... Ma mère, je suis certain que non!

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout November 25th, 2019 15:28


Two years ago, FSFE said this when I contacted them : "As an actor who is engaging in advocacy work for Free Software, we do not necessarily want to associate ourselves with any political movement.", therefore we couldn't sign this campaign as Pirate Party. Today they sent this to all people supporting the campaign :

German Conservative Party demands "Public Money? Public Code!"

Dear Renaud Van Eeckhout,

The Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) welcomes the German CDU's
party convention resolution on the use of Free Software. At its 32nd
party conference this weekend, the CDU resolved to join FSFE in
demanding that software developed with public money should be publicly
available as Free Software. This decision aligns with our "Public
Money? Public Code!" campaign, which is supported by over 170
organisations and 26,000 individuals. Thanks to your support, the
demand has now reached the German conservative party CDU.
________________________________________________________________________

Help us keep working for Free Software.
Support us with a donation now! my.fsfe.org/donate

___________________________________________________________________
_____

Free Software gives everyone the right to use, study, share and improve
software for any purpose. These freedoms strengthen other fundamental
rights such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press and the right to
privacy. Digital sovereignty can only be achieved through Free
Software. We are pleased that our campaign has now gotten through to
the governing CDU party and that the conservatives support our demand
"Public Money? Public Code!". We now expect the CDU to immediately work
within the government to create the legal basis for publicly funded
software to be released under a Free- and Open-Source Software
license."

The CDU's party convention resolution states:


"The open and jointly developed standards of the Internet and open
interfaces are the principles from which we advance the digitisation of
Germany. It is only through openness that competition can be created;
only through openness can new players in competition challenge the top
dogs. This is why the following will apply to all (public) digitisation
projects in Germany in the future: the awarding of contracts and
funding will be subject to compliance with the principles of open
source and open standards. Software financed by public funds should
serve all citizens. In addition, free and open APIs should facilitate
access for independent developments." (Translation provided by the
FSFE)


You can read the complete resolution for more (German).

Further background information can be found on the campaign website.
The video and other content found there are available for free
distribution under a CC BY-SA 4.0 license.


Best regards,

Matthias Kirschner
FSFE President


I'm still waiting for an email explaining to thousand of people that Pirate Party does the same since more than 10 years... 🤔

Ilja Baert

Ilja Baert December 1st, 2019 18:02

Do you still have the original mail where they said we can't sign?

If so you could ask if it is still the case since they are now openly supporting CDU (or at least this one decission). Especially since we don't even ask them to align with ppbe. It's us who ask to openly support them.

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout December 2nd, 2019 12:39

I still have this email, yes.

Good idea, I just sent them an email asking about this, will keep you updated.

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout December 17th, 2019 15:16

Dear Renaud, thank you very much for your continuous interest in our work! I think there is a big misunderstanding, I hope I can clarify the situation. The CDU did not sign our open letter, nor any other party. Our policy in this field is still the same: parties cannot sign. Still, the decision by the biggest conservative party in Europe, which is also part of the German government, is a milestone. That's why we published a press release. We would do this with every other party as well if they are in a relevant position. For example we are also having a news item on a Free Software Amendment from the Pirate Party in the Parliament in Kassel and actively promote it (there have been more mailings and activities on social networks to create awareness on this than on the CDU decision). If you have any relevant news, similar to the explain ones above we are happy to share them within our community and in public. If you have any questions, feel free to contact us at any time. Kind regards, Lucas

That's the reply from the Free Software Foundation Europe I just received. So basically, they'll talk about us if we are in a relevant position somewhere (the Kassel article, for example). I think it's quite fair from them, so I don't see the need to insist more on this issue as we are not currently in a relevant position anywhere in Belgium as far as I know.

[FR] C'est la réponse de la Free Software Foundation Europe que je viens de recevoir. Donc, en gros, ils parleront de nous si nous sommes dans une position pertinente quelque part (l'article de Kassel, par exemple). Cela me semble honnête de leur part, donc je ne vois pas la nécessité d'insister davantage sur cette question vu que nous ne sommes actuellement pas dans une position pertinente nulle part en Belgique à ma connaissance.