Loomio

Convocation

Renaud Van Eeckhout
Renaud Van Eeckhout Public Seen by 330

Next step : writing the convocation

Now is the time to decide what we will write to all the Pirates. It's not a detail, as for many Pirates this will be the first time they hear about this GA, first time they hear about this vzw/asbl, first time they hear about the new website... And these Pirates are not worth less than us who have that information.

It's important to keep that in mind before sending the convocations, we have to share the information.

For each of the 4 parts of the agenda, I believe we should provide a link to a page (a wiki page seems most obvious?) that contains the necessary information to provide to the Pirates. For ex. the page on the vzw/asbl should contain a context, and links to the various meetings where this was discussed. The page with the proposals sent by mail should contain these proposals etc.

If you find a better way to share the information to all the Pirates (not just those on Loomio, or just those on Facebook), please do say.

Pad: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/Invitation-October2016

JV

Jov Ver September 8th, 2016 20:00

there are about 50 active, i.e. "paying" pirates. It's a number which I believe contains most of the active ones, which have been informed about proceedings over the last few months.

And sorry, if we have pirates whom we never see or hear from, except for on GA's to block proceedings, then I do think they're "worth less". I do so because I think we all want to move forward. If they also want to, then they should not be blocking in the first place and if they have reasons and want to express them, they have been given the time.

Look, a GA is not to discuss things, it is to formalise things. It is difficult enough to discuss between 10-12, and time-intensive enough to then spread that vision around to all crews - let alone to repeat these discussions when there's 50 around. I'd keep the wording as is already written. There's not a single vote against it - yet?

_That said. I do think adding more information is a good idea:

Bullet one has the URL to piratelab.be and can be added with the url to the piratepads which were used to register development and negotiation steps.

Bullet two has a link to the Google Docs.

Bullet three - for the time being, has nothing or nigh-nothing - some parts are written in the piratepads from bullet one. But we are running behind what should be the schedule with it._

J

Josse September 8th, 2016 20:03

So, just need to add the links to the translation in French on Agenda GA and it is done. But it would be in handy if @vanecx could check the translation.

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 8th, 2016 20:42

I don't know about that number of Pirates. According to you, they are "most of the active ones", so you admit yourself not all active Pirates are informed.

No Pirate is worth less than another, it's in the values of the Pirate Party. This is a pretty bad thing to say of you, tbh.

So, you're saying that there are Pirates you don't know, who didn't participate in the last months in the works for reasons you also don't know. You say that these Pirates are going to block you for reasons you don't know. Finally we should also suppose that these Pirates (the "worth less" according to you) have the same information as you on the topics you worked on.

I don't make that bet, see, so I want to make sure that all Pirates share the same information. And I believe that this is a reason good enough to not send the convocation until we work on that. My experience from past GA's makes me believe that it is often the lack of information that made people block a proposal.

So, do you really want to keep your stance and send incomplete/inaccurate convocations or do you want to contribute in making sure that all Pirates have the same information to take a decision?

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 8th, 2016 20:44

I'm aware there is a deadline getting closer, but it would be kind of you if you don't try to force-push things by making me do things I made clear I disagreed with. Let's work on solving issues first, I'll gladly help tomorrow for translation.

J

Josse September 8th, 2016 21:26

We all agree to inform in the best way possible. We can easily links to agenda next lab, pad of piratelab.be, loomio discussions here, ... I don't think that's a huge work.

J

Josse September 8th, 2016 21:28

Ok, you proposed a wiki page, but that should not take ages either...

JV

Jov Ver September 8th, 2016 21:56

Renaud - I merely repeated your use of words - and I even put them between quotes. It neither is very kind to slap them back in my face like that. But ok - never mind. That's a detail.

I do think I did make it clear what I meant. And I do stick to my point. If pirates, unseen for months, pop up at the GA to block proposals, discussed out in the open for months, then we are NOT moving forward, but merely stalling things. Even if they have very valid reasons. We have done everything to make them aware of what is going on - limited only by our disorganised way of communication. Facebook and piratepads mainly. Note that organisation was the first thing I wanted to address, but after Mab's speech at summer event (about Iceland elections), it became clear to me that there indeed should be more priority on these topics proposed as an agenda for the GA.

I am not at all promoting sending incomplete invitations. Quite on the contrary. All links to relevant information needs to be attached. If they want to react, they are given clean deadlines. All very transparent IMHO.

The experience you had with pirates blocking a proposal is the main reason why I have been doing more than one meeting a week ever since July. Summer event, Recess of Recession, Extracting Entropy, PirateLab, ASBL last Sunday and again this Saturday. PirateLab again Sept 24th. I went to Antwerp crew meetings, to these in Mechelen and drinks in Antwerp, Mechelen and the new Aalst crew and I'll attend them again the coming weeks. Why do I do that? To make sure nobody gets left out and everybody active gets the same information. It is a bit difficult for me to address the unknown idle ones huh? I have not went to Leuven, Gent and Brugge, because I know these crews are aligned already. Same for Brain l'Alleud, Waremme and Liège.

Is there me pushing a bit? I suppose so.

JV

Jov Ver September 8th, 2016 23:06

Thing is - I'd like to avoid them during the GA. That is why I am investing obscene amounts of time going to all these meetings. Have I mentioned that I am also calling about these a few hours a week with various persons? Including with Jan Van Opstal last week Saturday mind - to make sure everybody has the same information.

HgO

HgO September 9th, 2016 06:27

I will focus on the topic of this thread, since I don't really have time to re-read all this discussion. I suggest that we get some inspirations from the invitations sent for the last GA (March 2016). Then, we can write together on a piratepad, since it would be definitively easier.

Here is the template used for last GA : http://piratepad.be/p/Newsletter-February2016
and here is the pad I propose to use for the incoming GA : http://piratepad.be/p/Invitation-October2016

HgO

HgO September 9th, 2016 06:28

Side note: I can send the invitations through mailchimp (our newsletter tool), unless there is some better tool for this (which would be awesome, because I would love to get rid of mailchimp, but that's another debate maybe)

JV

Jov Ver September 9th, 2016 06:56

We would send to active members who have paid their membership.

Toon is working on that list already. Monica created the image we'd use as a header.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 9th, 2016 07:00

A press release ????

HgO

HgO September 9th, 2016 07:11

Hm I don't get it. Why not sending to any pirates, regardless whether they paid their membership or not? We are not sending reminder for the membership fee anyway, so that would let them informed about this as well. The good thing is that we would already have this list ready.

Good :) Could we see this header somewhere?

JV

Jov Ver September 9th, 2016 07:22

Hmm. I increasingly notice that Loomio is just another Facebook where we can argue and bicker for times on end without actually getting anywhere. That will result, as it has done in the past, in us not getting organised and thus not being able to give the general population the political alternative they need.

I attached the header to my previous post above, but it doesn't show. But it is part of the "So? Agenda OK" thread here on Loomio as well.

I'm not answering your question. As mentioned, this (Loomio) is not at all a productive way of working. I am willing to talk to you. Here's my number: 0485 977 727.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 9th, 2016 08:16

I do not have the same experience...

If well done progression is possible on loomio . The point is that we as Pirates are still on to many different platforms. It is a labyrinth....

Websites / facebooks / wiki / pads / loomio / slack a more consistent way of working is certainly of great importance....

More research is on the way .... In the mean time we already need a 'minister' of simplification..... :-)

PS

Pat Seynaeve started a proposal September 9th, 2016 08:22

Higher member fee Closed 10:25am - Friday 9 Sep 2016

A member fee of 1€/year is in my view of point too less to have a workable organisation.
Proposal to make it 1€/month or 12€/year minimum.
()
Also a invitation what the new member can or is willing to help, their skill’s, could be asked in the payment sheet, etc
A reminder should been send.
I know something about member fees is already discussed by the proposal about the asbl/vzw.
So just to make things clear to avoid long discussions at the GA.
When the proposal is drafted then we can vote about dividing the member fees between local crews and national/european organisation.

Results
Agree - 1
Abstain - 0
Disagree - 0
Block - 0
1 people have voted (0%)
JV

Jov Ver
Agree
September 9th, 2016 08:25

PS

Pat Seynaeve September 9th, 2016 08:26

proposal moved to brainstromingzone

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 9th, 2016 09:01

Except the FACT that it is PUBLIC. Copy / paste this curent page link : https://www.loomio.org/d/KhXLGfau/convocation in a Private Window of your browser and you will see the difference. Try the same with any of BPU Facebook stuff... that's the difference.

Transparency. Period.

HgO

HgO September 9th, 2016 10:29

Please, could we try to avoid off-topic?
So, since you aren't answering my question about membership, I can safely assume that there is no reason for not sending the invitation mail to any pirates.
You seem to complain a lot about people doing nothing, but when someone is proposing his help, you start arguing about something else. Maybe I'm wrong to say this, but this is how I feel it.
I will just do it my way, that is writing on the piratepad I linked the convocation letter, and then send it via mailchimp. I will of course ask for everybody's inputs and approvals before sending it. Unless you have something better to propose...

Christophe Cop

Christophe Cop September 9th, 2016 11:07

Technically, you should mail all people who have done a payment in 2013, because they are still member today, as there was no "reminder" to renew their membership.
As such, they are still members.
Plus, this GA is also a reach-out to all Belgian Pirates, a wake-up call so to speak. By mailing them all, old crews might become active again.

TVB

Toon Van Boxstael September 9th, 2016 11:18

Hey Christophe,

I agree with you, but this is impossible for me (or anyone) atm. I have made a membership list with the information that I've been able to collect, but prior the last GA I cannot check (in time) who paid when. Thus, I can only send to the people whe paid there or afterwards. I hope for your understanding in this matter.

HgO

HgO September 9th, 2016 12:12

So I see that you sent the convocation. Thank you for this great team work and transparency (!). Now, I must say that the French translation is almost unreadable.
By the way, this is the best way to get people frustrated.
But I shouldn't complain, since this is democracy, right? Oh, wait. It isn't...

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 9th, 2016 14:21

I don't understand...
Unless there is information missing, why have the convocations been sent already while we're still talking about the content of it?
I have not received mine, so I don't even know what's in it but apparently it contains that google translation?

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 9th, 2016 15:02

Without «knowing it» ... it's seem that all we are discussing here on Loomio WAS already decided days ago.

Thanks our core values, transparency, democracy, sharing ... and :rabbit: pops out of a :hole:

TVB

Toon Van Boxstael September 9th, 2016 15:51

Well, I asked for a French translation here on Loomio and the only person who had time to answer was also a Dutch speaker I believe, so if that is the case I'm sorry but It'll have to do - there was no time to wait any more. If you want, in the future I'll ask you personally to send a translation? That way the quality can only increase, and you get the chance to contribute!

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 9th, 2016 16:10

Before translating an «official» (fuck that word) text like an invitation to a GA with a sample version of an Agenda, «we» thought that «we» had first to agree on the content before giving time to translate.

But the content, the place and the date was probably already decided (that is a supposition of mine and it is written in my name only).

By the way, thanks for the invitation sent from your gmail account. I really do not understand why «we» still have pirateparty.be mail accounts or Mailchimp newsletter (and yes, I am sarcastic).

But please, do not take it personally because YES «we» are a mess! :smiley:

Vincent

Vincent September 9th, 2016 16:24

Now you know what happend during last election. Deadlines, pressure, tension, misunderstanding, mistakes, conflict.

It's a good practice.

@all Please keep in mind that we are all volunteers here.

@jovver , you might want to learn what happened to the last coreteam before you make your next move.

TVB

Toon Van Boxstael September 9th, 2016 16:32

Hey people,

I must have made the mistake assuming that the information that was given to me today when I asked for it was already agreed upon; for this I'm more than willing to apologize. I'm not familiar with Loomio and frankly totally not on my 'territory' handling the mail traffic of the party.

What I did do was try to make a more or less usable membership list, something that seemed to be completely missing a year ago (unimaginable as it is). When people told me that I had to send an invitation to the whole list a few days ago, there was still a lot of work on that list, so I've tried to complete it as good as possible. The deadline, I was told, was today, so today I asked for a translation of the agenda in French (I made the Dutch one quickly myself), and I didn't check the French one that was offered to me, as I felt time was ticking and it was expected from me that I handled as quickly as possible. That was another mistake, and also for this I do apologize if it has gotten people frustrated.

What I won't apologize for is acting. People asked my help, and the past week I've worked a lot to be able to send the invitation for the GA (which I'm not working on, so I'm not familiar with the discussions) to as many people as possible. I'm more than happy to learn and to do better next time, but please don't start ridiculising the effort made by many people to organize this event, especially not because of my mistakes. We're all here with good intentions right?

To Thierry: thanks, I won't :)

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 9th, 2016 16:47

Thank you for this explanation, @toonvanboxstael !
Hopefully we learn from this and improve it for next time.

JV

Jov Ver September 9th, 2016 16:56

I was not going to come to Loomio anymore, but I make an exception for you @vincent15 .


  • sigh *

Before I make my next "move"? Do you all think that I am trying to do anything but trying to organize the mess the PPBE is in? I have stated time and again: I am not doing this for me. I have a good life, a great house, a nice car, good work, a fantastic income, even more fantastic kids etc. I do not need a basic income, actually am quite fine with privacy, banking leaves to be desired, transparency must increase. Oh well.

I organised. A LOT by -- the -- book although some here fail to see that. If open meetings, open minutes, open clips, open drinks and an invitation to call (my personal number is right here in this thread) are not enough to warrant "transparancy", I don't know what is. Loomio? How many pirates are on here?

I've tried to assemble and motivate a LOT of people over the last few months to gather towards a common, democratically created goal only to come here - another time investment for me with a full-time job, a family and a book to write - and see persons misinterpret explicit things I say, misquote me, judge me for things I didn't and won't do etcetera. I see words of mine hand-picked and pulled out of context just to make a point when there isn't one to give.

If pirate democracy means that each and e-ve-ry-thing needs to be decided upon democratically, not only in squad meetings, crew meetings, minutes, videos and talks, then pirates will miss their intended goal. We can all sit here and shout at each other for aeons. Let's create that invitation then - a "democratically created one". I'll immediately create a poll for the first letter we need to use. I say it's an "A" - all agree? Next step is the second letter.

Oh. And about these "decisions" which were made: where, when, the text of the invitation.

Where's been discussed in Gembloux. Since Mechelen is organising, "it is only normal that the GA is here" was common consensus. "Also, it's never been here in the past," was another. Should there have been somebody against, we listened!

When's been discussed in function of Iceland, starting early August in Recess of Recession. It has been postponed to "as late as possible".

The text? Yeah. That must have been a "decision" of mine. Nobody else wrote it or had any intention to. No. The only thing which is being said here is: "I don't like it. Let's create a pad for it." An empty one of course, as actually writing it - that's for somebody else.

I really apologize for investing all this time Loomio-guys. I merely seem to be able to upset people here. I'll apologize for wanting to organize too. For having these (open-invitation) meetings "in the background". I am upsetting you. Well, these I have never spoken to at least. As others, who have been talking to me, mostly were encouraging.

focus on our common goal; don't focus on the words needed to express it
^ for crying out loud

JV

Jov Ver September 9th, 2016 17:06

I forgot something: tomorrow there's a meeting in Mechelen I have extremely undemocratically decided to organize in order to get over the differences concerning the articles (statutes). Since you all are so worried about them - can you all join? According to Nicolas - Malines is easy to reach by train.

As well as take up the role I picked up to moderate, steer and (try to) motivate.

It seems I can't.

HgO

HgO September 10th, 2016 19:07

@toonvanboxstael I have just a question: Do you actually read the discussions on Loomio? In short, we were several pirates who disagreed to send the invitation as it was, and thus we offered to write another one based on the convocation for the last GA. I also added that we shouldn't focus too much on deadlines, since it would have a negative impact on quality (due to stress and lack of time). That's not a big deal if the convocation is sent one week late. We had worse situations in the past.
So, I thought all this was clear enough, though. This is why I got frustrated, because I have the feeling that everything we say here is not heard.
Anyway, thanks for your apologies, they are much appreciated.

@jovver Dude, we just don't care about your financial situation. I mean, I'm so happy to hear that you are earning so much money, you must be so happy in your life. I will say it again: for me this sounds as an argument from authority and maybe some showing off.
Now, I really do wonder whether you think I am stupid, because I told you that I was abroad for my studies until today. Thus, making a call phone was not an option for me, and the pad was empty (well, now it isn't, and thanks to the one who started it) since I obviously couldn't take care of this before coming back home.
Please, stop acting the fool, it doesn't suit you well. We both know that this is not what I meant by a democratic and transparent process.
You might notice that I am only arguing about the text "decision", and nothing else. I am not questioning the way the location and date were chosen.

I will start writing a proper convocation letter tomorrow, because the trip was really tiring (btw, this is not normal that I have to give reasons for this). The question being, does everybody agree on sending a second convocation mail?

J

Josse September 10th, 2016 19:27

@HgO If you are so desperate about making a better translation, ... you could have done it instead of complaining and we could have sent it already again (2 mails is not spam and I don't see why we need a democratic decision to inform). In the meantime, people at least know there will be something. And, indeed, I did the translation in record Google Translate speed so someone native French could make it better. Do - O/A- cracy, damn it!

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 10th, 2016 19:28

You could make a proposal on this?

But does it really matter?

Maybe it is better to keep on working on the agenda?

On the vzw/asbl bylaws proposition....
and so many other hot items ....

HgO

HgO September 10th, 2016 19:36

Again... It wasn't possible for me at that time.

@janvanopstal Yup, good idea :)
I'm not sure what does really matter here. I just know that for me, this does.

HgO

HgO started a proposal September 10th, 2016 19:57

Send a second convocation letter to any pirates Closed 9:01pm - Tuesday 13 Sep 2016

I propose that we send a second convocation letter to any pirates, that is to any members regardless they paid their membership fee. We would use the mailing list from mailchimp, which is usually used to send our newsletters.

Cf. the discussion for more details about all the reasons for this new convocation letter.

Results
Agree - 9
Abstain - 1
Disagree - 2
Block - 1
13 people have voted (0%)
HgO

HgO
Agree
September 10th, 2016 19:57

J

Josse
Agree
September 10th, 2016 20:07

Do it!

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 10th, 2016 20:13

@hgo I (seem to) agree with you that the things Jovver says, and the way he says them are both very unpleasant, but he decided yesterday to leave Loomio, so be it. He's gone from here, let's move on.

I will help you for this convocation 2.0, but I believe it has to be an erratum - a correction based on the first convocation sent - and that it should not be too different. Otherwise, we send contradicting messages to Pirates who might not understand anything anymore if we do that.

But be cool please, this situation is annoying for everyone, let's not make it worse ;)

J

Josse September 10th, 2016 20:19

@vanecx you don't need to play the drama queen either. You can also say "with more details". I don't see how they could be contradictory.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 10th, 2016 20:53

Not to fast, not to slow..... easy going, going far...

Let's do it the way it should be done .... ?

For the legal side.... the convocation has been send on time.

So we are not in a hurry...

For the democratic way .... it is clear that Jovver was not informed about Loomio...
In fact .... many Pirates are not aware of this workflow. And it is not yet approved either...
it is a temporarily experiment. Other more adapted systems will be tested also if Robert Colson (not on loomio yet ... asked him his emailadres) )

Let's start to make more pirates aware....

Part of the convocation?

Then the agenda....
Why not making a new thread first, so we all can vote in the drafting zone about all events

JV

Jov Ver September 10th, 2016 21:11

@hgo much like I don't care about your weak excuse of being abroad then? Pot, kettle much?

That letter had mostly positive answers. Some other topics leveled up with less unanimity. I believe there's one just now which leveled even if somebody had blocked it - but not sure here.

JV

Jov Ver
Disagree
September 10th, 2016 21:18

Mailchimp list has a list of members of the movement. They're not members of the party. For the latter membership fee needs to have been paid before invitations are sent out.

If not, you open doors to have the ga highjacked.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 10th, 2016 21:45

??? highjacked? what is there to highjack ?

As far as I know the Pirates and his General Assembly are open for everyone who subscribes the Pirate basics.....

The right to vote is only for members who fulfilled there contribution fee (1 € at this stage)

" Mailchimp list has a list of members of the movement " in this case they only adress movement members....

What are you fearing Jov Ver ???? Could you explain this clear, so everyone can understand it ????

I think that we want to grow as movement ...

and direct democracy - transpancy should be the core of our way of working ;-)

JV

Jov Ver September 10th, 2016 21:54

In short: I fear eternal babble without being able to offer society the alternative it needs.

Don't you?

Vincent

Vincent September 11th, 2016 00:41

Do you need help to organize the assembly and make sure the timing is respected?

Because keeping an information secret for fear of loosing control during the decision process is not exactly the alternative I want to offer to society.
I agree it makes things less predictable but we are talking about integrity and consistency here.

I quote the basistext: http://lepartipirate.be/texte-de-base-des-pirates

"5.2 L'information qui concerne la gestion publique doit être accessible publiquement, dans des formats de données ouverts et sous des formes qui garantissent une facilité d'utilisation optimale.
5.3 Les Pirates considèrent la transparence et l'objectivité comme fondamentales. Le public doit être correctement informé pour prendre les bonnes décisions de façon démocratique, pour maintenant et pour plus tard.
5.4 Responsabilité et participation vont de pair : les citoyen·ne·s ne peuvent assumer de responsabilité que s'ils peuvent également prendre les initiatives et les décisions.
5.5 Les Pirates croient que toutes et tous ont le droit d'être impliqué⋅e⋅s dans les décisions qui les touchent. Tout·e citoyen·ne a également le droit de savoir comment ces décisions sont prises."

JV

Jov Ver September 11th, 2016 01:16

Is the language barrier really that big?

(1)
Give me ONE example of information which is kept "secret" @vincent15 or @hgo or @vanecx ? The place? The time? The articles (statutes)? Even the invitation text? The proceedings of all meetings? Which one? Fact is, if you are willing to finally step beyond that incomprehensible defensive, and sometimes plain insulting wall of yours, you'd have to admit that all is done in line with the party's basic text.

(2)
By allowing literally everybody to walk in on a Pirate GA you'd actually have the possibility to loose your Party's integrity and consistency! Reasoning? Imagine, at the door, 200 NV-A supporters proclaiming they're pirates and ruining the possibility to actually decide some things? Preventing pirates from being able to finally address the important parts of the party (organisation, theme-based squads etc). How? By filibustering on worthless items. As far as I understood, it is one of the things which happened in the past - and which we would not like to go through again. Am I mistaking here?

(3)
The results of the live meetings, where quite a lot of pirates have invested more or less time in have - and I state that for the zillionth time here - been PUBLIC. What we have done is entirely in-line with your point 5.2, 5.3 (yes, even the "democratic" part), , 5.4 and 5.5 - not a single shortcut has been taken.

edit: btw. Today's meeting was great again. People attended from close to Ath, to Bruges (120km drive - single leg), to Diksmuide (153km drive - single leg!) to Antwerp, to Leuven. You know what, everybody was able to speak up, to discuss, to talk. All on a sunny Saturday. We came to a joint understanding of the articles - completely, democratically, transparently - in fact, people were able to follow proceedings on the Google Doc from all around the world. Where were you all?

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 11th, 2016 07:17

Yes the language barrier is really that big...

and proves you are not aware of it or do not want to take care about it....(sic)
Not only the language, but the communication in general can be much better.

"We came to a joint understanding of the articles - completely, democratically, transparently - in fact, people were able to follow proceedings on the Google Doc from all around the world. Where were you all?"

But there was no announcement of this Google event and it was allowed to anonymous participants....

2) this is a pure demagogic statement. NV-A supporters do not comply to the basic text of the pirates.

3) We have been setting up a working livestream experiment from your home with your smartphone

A first attempt on previous meeting did not work.
On the last meeting there was not even a attempt.

There was not even a communication about it....

There are pirates who do not have the time, money or due to ecologic reasons do not want to make a trip to Mechelen. With lifestreams you could really show the good will of making this a open way... I could follow a lifestream of a fischerman in Mechelen.

But I did follow the lifestream of the Dalai Lama in Brussels.... about power and caring...
A good intake....

Valerie D.

Valerie D.
Agree
September 11th, 2016 08:29

GA is open to ALL. Vote restricted to members.

HgO

HgO September 11th, 2016 08:45

@vanecx Yes, I'll try to keep cool, otherwise I fear that we will never move on.
Thank you for your help! I think that as @josse said, we could add more information without having a contradictory convocation in the end.

@jovver Can't we just assume good faith ?

Vincent

Vincent
Agree
September 11th, 2016 09:19

Not informing people who have been following us for years of a decision impacting the way we work will eventually backfire.
If the main reason is that we don't trust them, it will make things worse

We are talking about attending the GA. Not voting.

ZeFredz

ZeFredz
Agree
September 11th, 2016 09:46

If we are fighting for transparency, our GA has to be public !

JV

Jov Ver September 11th, 2016 09:55

@janvanopstal seriously?

Jan, wil jij nu bewust, elk woord van me verkeerd interpreteren? Zie jij nu écht niet wat ik bedoelde met wat ik bovenaan schreef?

1) "and proves you are not aware of it or do not want to take care about it (the language barrier)...."

... terwijl het net een zekere ikke was die op Facebook de oproep lanceerde om aub in het Engels of het Frans te posten?!?

"But there was no announcement of this Google event and it was allowed to anonymous participants...."

Dat is maar gedeeltelijk waar niet? Iedereen "wist" waar het document stond (de URL ervan is meer dan eens gedeeld - ook hier op Loomio). De vergadering was aangekondigd. Waar je gelijk in hebt, is dat de "beslissing" (shit - men zou bang worden dat woord zelfs nog maar te gebruiken!) om direct in Google Docs te editen op het laatste moment genomen werd, en niet werd aangekondigd. Moet ik daarvoor opnieuw te kakken worden gezet?

(waarmee ik natuurlijk je laatste zin niet afbreek - dat communicatie te wensen over laat. Daar heb je 4000% gelijk in! Kijk maar naar deze thread.)

2) NV-A...

Heb je nu echt geen idee wat ik hiermee wilde zeggen? Er zit geen "demagogische" reden achter. De reden die erachter zit, is: bang zijn dat die GA uitmondt in een oeverloos gezwets zonder dat er noodzakelijke beslissingen genomen kunnen worden.

Is dat niet al in het verleden gebeurd?

3) Mijn gebruik van "Live Meetings" was "Meetings in persoon", "In Real Life", dus "Live meetings" (voor mij nog steeds de beste manier om tot een vorm van vergelijk te komen). Had niks te maken met live streaming. Was dat zó onduidelijk? Zoals gezegd Jan, ik heb maar twee handen aan mijn lijf én ik heb maar zo veel uren op een dag. Vind je nu echt dat ik niet genoeg mijn best doe om iedereen op dezelfde lijn te krijgen?! (ik neem aan dat je weet wat ik allemaal heb proberen te doen tot nu toe)

JV

Jov Ver September 11th, 2016 10:00

@hgo "@jovver Can't we just assume good faith ?"

Well yes. That would be lovely really!

I have the impression we are NOT having good faith in each other now. In fact I posted this message about it. I used "trust" though - and because of that one single difference in word usage (good faith vs trust), few people again seem to have understood it. Although both words are synonims: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/trust

(This is that topic: https://www.loomio.org/d/OAxwU5j2/how-can-we-build-a-little-more-trust-in-each-other- )

So yes - all for it HgO. Let's show more good faith and try to comprehend each other instead of misinterpreting each other.

Vincent

Vincent September 11th, 2016 10:08

(1) Maybe I haven't understood your argumentation.
Aren't you objecting to to the idea of sending a document that informs our followers that a General Assembly will be held?

(2) Members vote. Followers attend. NVA can attend if they want to. I don't think they will.

(3) Could we go back to the topic? We are talking about the general assembly, not just the VZW.
I have a project to show and submit for validation to the GA. I've spent time and money on it.
Is it important? Well, it's our main communication tool and it's the solution for a problem that's been rotting for years. So, yes, it's important.

I'm of course talking about the website. And for the record, I've warmly welcomed pirates who have popped out of nowhere to bend that project in a direction they like.

JV

Jov Ver September 11th, 2016 10:38

(1) I am not in favour of the idea to broadcast the invitation to the widest possible group, but, if most pirates would agree with the idea to send the invitation to a very large group, then I would not object it. I would follow and stand behind the decision.

And the reason I am not in favour of the idea is because we need to get somewhere. It's difficult enough to come to decisions as it is - let alone if you open the GA for everybody out there.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 11th, 2016 11:11

Het is waar dat jij dat op FB hebt gepost, daarmee heb je de zaak aangekaart maar niet opgelost.... Er zijn ook nederlandstaligen die geen engels kunnen schrijven .... Laten we het dan nog niet hebben over anderstaligen....

Het is geen makkelijke materie en maakt nu ook deel uit van een apparte thread om in deze zaak gezamelijk naar oplossingen te zoeken. Dus neem dat niet te persoonlijk op.... Het zijn feiten en daar moeten we allen rekening mee houden....

Dan wat betreft google docs.... het gaat hem niet over te kakken zetten.... ik zit zo niet in mekaar Jo... Het is enkel een feitelijke vaststelling, waarmee je of dat positief verwerkt en er in de toekomst ook rekening mee kan houden.... (en onderzoekt of dat anonieme participatie geen problemen kan geven? wie zegt dat er geen VB mollen achter schuil gaan :-) )

of dat persoonlijk neemt.... hetgeen mn indruk is. Het is niet mn bedoeling te kwetsen maar ervoor te zorgen dat we steeds beter als groep de basis waarden kunnen toepassen...

Elke mens maakt fouten, dat is net mens zijn.... Ik doe niks anders ;-)

2) als dit je oprechte bekomernis is, hebben we er allen belang aan maximaal vooraf zoveel mogelijk op een open manier het debat te voeren. Loomio is 24u 7/7 voor 'iedereen' toegankelijk. En kan best bijdragen omwille van zijn struktuur. In die zin laten we dat persoonlijke zoveel mogelijk in een doosje laten en ons vooral concentreren op de inhoud.

3) Het gaat hem niet over je inzet, dewelke zeker prijzenswaardig is. Het gaat om nog meer openheid te maken en meer mensen te betrekken om kennis te nemen van het voorstel en alzo de pro en contra's duidelijk vooraf al aan bod te laten komen, zodat we op de GA zo min mogelijk nog discussie hebben en zo snel mogelijk tot stemming kunnen overgaan.

Blijkbaar heeft niemand jou gebriefd over Loomio, hetgeen al een even jammerlijke vaststelling is. Het is dan wel te laat voor de officiele agenda... Er is nog volop tijd voor de effectieve agenda klaar te maken.

Via dit platform heeft de Mechelse crew alle tools om van de komende GA een succes te maken... hetgeen tenslotte de bedoeling is of zou moeten zijn. Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten...

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal
Agree
September 11th, 2016 11:21

If our intentions are nobel, we should not be afraid.
Opening the GA is a way to let the Pirate movement grow...
We need a mass movement in order to change the system, so let us start to at least inform all previous Pirates... And welcome new.

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse
Agree
September 11th, 2016 11:22

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 11th, 2016 11:23

Piratepab.be is down since this morning. @koendv can you do something?

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 11th, 2016 11:26

off topic

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 11th, 2016 11:28

Not really because the link to the pad http://piratepad.be/p/Invitation-October2016 is in the description of this thread and I wanted to see it.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 11th, 2016 11:39

ok :thumbsup:

HgO

HgO September 11th, 2016 13:28

I am working on this pad as a back-up plan: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/Invitation-October2016
For the moment, this is more a copy/paste from the last newsletter. So yeah, this is still a work in progress ;)

Jonas Besbrugge

Jonas Besbrugge
Disagree
September 11th, 2016 20:48

Jonas Besbrugge

Jonas Besbrugge September 11th, 2016 21:24

"Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten..."
Jan met die redenering kan ik niet echt akkoord gaan. dat is bijna vragen dat je moet bewijzen dat je onschuldig bent. Als je in een crew of squad een voorstel uitwerkt dat door een ruime meerderheid of zelf unaniem wordt gedragen. Dan mogen die mensen toch verlangen dat tegenstanders zelf ook wat verdiepen in het onderwerp, terechte vragen stellen en dan met gedegen tegen argumenten komen.

HgO

HgO September 11th, 2016 21:30

You are right, you don't have to provide some reasons of your disagreement :) Although, I would be very glad to hear them, simply because it is always good to get feedback. But just do as you want, of course ;)

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 11th, 2016 22:16

@ Jonas Besbrugge ... Blijkbaar druk ik mij niet goed uit of heb jij het niet goed verstaan?

"Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten..."

In deze zin stel ik toch dat de tegenstaanders gedegen argumenten aanbrengen...

En kan ik vaststellen dat je tegen deze thread stemt zonder bekende reden?

Niet dat dit noodzakelijk is, maar toch handig als anderen weten om welke reden je tegen bent....

PS

Pat Seynaeve September 12th, 2016 06:27

Iets minder oeverloos gezwets en meer on topic met degelijke argumenten zou wenselijker zijn.

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 12th, 2016 07:31

@hgo en relisant ce matin le pad je me demandais si le plus simple serait d'envoyer un copier/coller du mail que j'ai reçu (collé dans le pad).

Par ailleurs, c'est vrais qu'il n'y a aucun lien vers un truc d'enregistrement comme la fois précédente sur Eventbrite.

By the way, does someone have this Eventbrite account credentials? If yes, can you at least provide a way to contact you here on Loomio or on the ITNow wiki page?

Sandrine Debatty

Sandrine Debatty
Agree
September 12th, 2016 08:01

HgO

HgO September 12th, 2016 08:03

Ben là, l'invitation est presque finie. Je dois encore trouver comment formuler les points qui concernent l'ASBL, et ce sera bon je pense. La traduction devrait aller vite, je pense.

I don't have the credentials for this account, but I could manage the event. I'm not sure to know how Eventbrite exactly works, but I can copy that event to make a new one for this GA. If I do this, then I would need to know the maximum number of people expected, and the exact opening and closing times. But I think this requires a new thread.

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 12th, 2016 08:19

Done here on a new thread. :kissing_heart:

HgO

HgO September 12th, 2016 10:51

Ok, for me the convocation letter is finished. I'm not sure about the last bullet point of the agenda, and whether I put a link to the Google Docs for the VZW/ASBL...

I will start the French translation to gain some time, but don't be afraid to make your changes or comments :) I will adapt the translation accordingly.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 12th, 2016 10:53

Maybe put a link of both.... the bylaws today and the new propositions, so everyone can easy compare....

Seynaeve Wouter

Seynaeve Wouter
Agree
September 12th, 2016 11:34

HgO

HgO September 12th, 2016 12:46

What do you mean exactly? Do you suggest to send this link : https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RIw9PV6zYkM2ucVe_zcXqSAgYrAvKyny5178HTsG84/edit ? Because I was thinking that it would be better to send a read-only version of the document, and to let people make their comments in Loomio for instance. I am afraid that Google Docs are not well designed for that.

NB

nicolas boucher
Block
September 12th, 2016 13:49

No way that we send a letter to the ones who did not pay the membership fee. It's clearly in the status that if you did not pay you do not have the right to vote. It's 1€ so if they did not do it then let's forget them and move on.

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout September 12th, 2016 13:53

@nicolasboucher it was mentionned in the discussion here and it's clearly written in the convocation letter being written currently : "Bear in mind that only members who paid their membership fee can vote."

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 12th, 2016 19:31

And what if someone pays the fee to be a member at the GA doorstep?

What if a friend come with me, listen to the speaches and in the moment of the vote, raises his hand without being a member. How do you control him? At the door? If yes ... where is the transparency and the sharing which are considered as core values?

Those members-only rules/members-only votes are some sort of mental illness fed by the roots of the control instead of the fluidity of our desired democratic approach.

It's a poison for the mind. A sickness. Give time instead of counting votes. Let it go, be open, listen, share, embrace even those who are «not like us».

Period

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 12th, 2016 19:48

Good idea, it is about the text...

Make a read only version of the existing statues and the proposal for the VZW/ASBL

Valerie D.

Valerie D. September 12th, 2016 19:58

I think @sarah40 maybe knows about eventbrite

TVB

Toon Van Boxstael September 12th, 2016 20:45

Hey guys!

Following this discussion, Hadrien G. asked me to send him the list of new (and old) members since the last GA, so he can send them the second convocation.to everybody regardless of the date of their last payment.

That's all fine by me, but many of the people on this list are considered 'closed' members and I don't know if it's appropriate to share their names just like that. I personally dislike the idea as long as there's no 'fixed' database where we can put information like this, and where it's only accessible for people who are entitled to it. But maybe there's a good way to determine if it's ok to send the info?

HgO

HgO September 12th, 2016 20:59

(For those who don't know, I am Hadrien ;) )

Small point: I would need the recent members only (starting from March 2016), as the old mailing list is already on mailchimp. We should probably clean this someday... But note that anyone can unsubscribe his/her mail address from the mailchimp mailing list (although I am aware that not everybody will think of doing it).

HgO

HgO September 12th, 2016 21:09

Done :)

I'm good with the text now. If some kind pirate would like to write the Dutch translation (either from English or French), that would be great :)

I would also need confirmation about the Eventbrite and about the opening and closing times.

SVL

sarah van liefferinge September 13th, 2016 00:43

I used Eventbrite for the symposium about 'economy', it worked fine and is very easy to use? but that was done from a personal account I believe.

looks like someone created a Pirates BE account for the previous GA: who owns this account?
http://www.eventbrite.com/o/pirates-be-9890872826

see here for topic on registration and EventBrite:
https://www.loomio.org/d/eIXMPLa7/how-do-we-register-to-the-ga-event-

SVL

sarah van liefferinge
Abstain
September 13th, 2016 00:49

I hope we won't attract Pirate visitors who think we're going to debate Pirate ideas and who are looking for 'ideological content', instead of organisation and structure. should be made clear that the focus is on the latter during this GA.

HgO

HgO September 13th, 2016 10:26

I hope that the convocation letter makes it clear that it will be very technical indeed.

Could you ask for a translator of the Dutch part : https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/Invitation-October2016 ? There are less than 10 lines to be translated. Thank you very much ! :)

NB

nicolas boucher September 13th, 2016 13:37

@tierce If I remember correctly they are not allowed to vote because they have to be member at the moment we send out the convocation. I have to say that I'm quite surprised when somebody speaks about transparency with the Pirates who don't even want to make the member list public... On an organisational way it could be funny to allow people to come with friends who are ready to vote at the GA and becoming member on that they. I'd then suggest all the ones who wish to pass something at the GA to come with friends and family that day only, pay 1€ and here we go... Or even a crowdfounding I put 100€ on the table, pay the membership fee of 100 persons asking them to be there and here we go... as their name will never appear nowhere... It could be funny.

HgO

HgO September 13th, 2016 13:48

Transparency and privacy are conflicting matters. Here, we ask people who decide to become member some personal data, but in the same time we ensure them that those data will remain internal (cf. the first line of this page).

That would be funny to prevent people from voting only because they forget to pay their membership fee. Even funnier when we know that we allowed member to renew their membership fee on the day of every GA in the past.

Anyway, maybe it would be better to start a new topic about this (i.e. how do we decide that a member has the right to vote on a GA), as I wouldn't want to "pollute" this one...

NB

nicolas boucher September 13th, 2016 13:49

Yes I know but I think we should focus on being efficient. I cannot stand that we lose so much time on a GA because of organization. It's easier for everyone not to call for those who are not member anymore if we are not even able to tell when someone's membership reaches the deadline.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 13th, 2016 13:51

If I remember correctly they are not allowed to vote because they have to be member at the moment we send out the convocation. .... Where is this stated?

NB

nicolas boucher September 13th, 2016 13:54

That's what I don't find but I'm sure that Marouane spoke to me about it. But it seems that that in the facts the Pirates were allowed to pay their fee on the GA day.

Valerie D.

Valerie D. September 13th, 2016 17:20

@hgo
1) tu peux peut-être ajouter que le débat doit se faire en préparation de l'AG, pas avant ? / you could add that debate is on loomio, not at the GA --> come prepared !

2) il manque la possibilité de donner sa procuration ! (1 par personne/max) / apparently we forgot about giving the possibility of proxy voting for those who cannot make it (1 proxy carrier per person max).

HgO

HgO September 14th, 2016 22:04

1) I will think a way to formulate this, but yes this is a good idea :) / Je dois voir comment formuler tout ça, mais oui c'est une bonne idée :)
2) Do we have some forms to fulfill for this? / Est-ce qu'on a un formulaire à remplir pour pouvoir donner sa procuration?

Thierry Fenasse

Thierry Fenasse September 15th, 2016 08:05

2) peut-être qu'en attendant d'en avoir un «à nous» on peut utiliser ceux-ci en barrant le titre à la main pour y mettre «Pirate GA Fall 2016». En plus il y a les version FR et NL :smiley:

HgO

HgO September 15th, 2016 08:20

That would be funny to reuse those government forms ^
I was thinking about something simpler, though. You just need to send an email with "GA Proxy" as title. You must also put the person to whom you delegate your vote in CC, so that they are informed of this :)
Several questions now: Which mail address do we use for this ? Who will collect those mails? We would need to check whether both persons paid their membership fee, and whether this is their proper mail address.

Ce serait amusant de réutiliser ces formulaires du gouvernement (en tant que pirates) ^
Je me disais qu'on pourrait faire plus simple, cependant. On pourrait juste envoyer un mail avec pour titre "Procuration GA". Il faudrait également mettre la personne à qui on délègue son vote en copie, afin qu'elle soit tenu au courant quand même :)
Questions: On envoie à quelle adresse? Qui va collecter tous ces mails? On devra aussi vérifier que les deux personnes sont bien en ordre de cotisation, et si c'est effectivement leur véritable adresse mail.

Jan Van Opstal

Jan Van Opstal September 15th, 2016 10:19

work for @patrickinstalle ? to verify ???

Valerie D.

Valerie D. September 15th, 2016 17:37

yes, via email, with the delegate in cc, is exactly what was happening before. At the GA registration desk, the delegate receives a second set of voting papers.