Loomio
Wed 19 Jun 2019

Deleting threads on Loomio

TA
Tom Allen Public Seen by 266

(edited to be more positive from my previous attempt)

sometimes people want to delete threads on loomio for various reasons. but that can leave some people who posted in them feeling hurt and also lose valuable information and debate which would then have to be repeated.

what guidelines can we develop to make sure these conflicting needs are managed?

i think the preferred response to a desire to delete depends on the reason and the content.

posts only the writer commented on - ok to delete
posts the writer got a few short comments on that don't hold much value as standalone posts - ok to delete
posts with a lengthy debate between the writer and other people directly challenging the original post - ok to delete
posts with lengthy debate but with some posts with useful information - suggest to repost the valid information or give the writer of that information chance to do so before deletion
posts that start discussions between other members that don't involve the original author - not ok to delete , best to get one of the other people in the thread to adopt it instead if the original writer wish's to remove themself, they can then remove all there comments too

what do others think? i will update this list as people suggest things below

DU

[deactivated account] Wed 19 Jun 2019

@tomallen4 That would be helpful if you could repost it 馃憤

A

Amandasm Wed 19 Jun 2019

If it was deleted by the person who started the thread, perhaps discuss it with them first?

TA

Tom Allen Wed 19 Jun 2019

@amandasm I am trying to , but do you think even if they say they don't want it posted it is ok to post the comments without their name or some other option? Personally I feel as it was posted publicly and automatically sent to all commenters as email, it already belongs to the community and we should be able to discuss it

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Hi Tom, I've been quite busy since Nest with other wordly urgencies, but thank you for this.
I think this is really a gordian knot for us nestlings and can't be avoided. I echo your sentiments although rather than censorship I feel we're dealing with immaturity and lack of awareness of the wider consequences of one's own actions.

I refuse to engage or support hierarchical dynamics and I feel we should aim at creating a series of protocols that would "automatically" prevent this from happening.

I'm not sure Loomio is the right platform for this - maybe a perfect one doesn't exists and we have to do with what we have, and definitely Facebook generates lots of emotional noise that is easy to be sucked into and it's hard to make it constructive at times, but it also is the place where everyone is.

About the reposting option, I think we should honour the person's who deleted their own thread by NOT posting their contributions and keep everyone else's only.

Cheers.
Amir @The Bridge

TA

Tom Allen Wed 19 Jun 2019

@amirkhadr Fully agree with you . It's also worth noting that loomio can be run with very different settings when hosted privately. The hosted version is much like Facebook in my view. The Borderland for example allows everyone to undelete posts and edit each others posts too! The emphasise there is that this is all tracked and can be reversed too, much like Wikipedia style systems. I look forward to more work on growing nest into a less hierarchical space to benefit all :)

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Thanks for the tech-info, then it seems that is really only a matter of intent and how to translate the 11 principles into a technical configuration of loomio.
That could be a interesting project to take on:

  • Initiate a new loomio account
  • configure it in line with the 11 principles
  • Have threads for simulated debates (play out the what if game, ie: the troll, the personal insult, the heated thread, the useless waste of time, the kitten meme)
  • Have threads of recalibration were we discuss how we could have a better configuration
  • draw conclusions
  • propose a change the configuration in this Nest group (continuity) or propose to create a new one or propose to use the one where the simulation has started.

What do you think, @tomallen4 ?

SB

Stephen Brannigan Thu 20 Jun 2019

I don't know anywhere near enough about Loomio to create the new forum you're suggesting @amirkhadr , but I'd be happy to role play as a user doing all the negative things you suggested. Accordingly I'd try to get around any restrictions put in place to test the systems, so we can be sure they work. @tomallen4 Did you miss Amirs reply above?

TA

Tom Allen Thu 20 Jun 2019

@amirkhadr That is exactly when I intend to do in August when i get back from europe, thanks for articulating it so well :)

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

I did note a comment that appeared to be a continuation of what seems to be a personal vendetta. Might have been enough reason to close the thread, though I'd personally prefer such things to be locked rather than deleted - it leaves the evidence up to allow people to make their own assessments.

The comment (though I could be confused, I haven't looked for it elsewhere) was something about autocratic moderation. To be honest, I think moderation is an unfortunate necessity and if you're going to have a moderator, autocracy is pretty much a necessity. Some groups have a team of moderators to make this less personal, as the targets of moderation often get offended.

I support moderation that removes personal attacks and useless polemic (I referred recently to politics an religion, two topics that tend to generate more heat than light). I prefer it to be by threadlocking but tbh I think it's a matter for the moderator. Their policy should ideally be explicit and generally agreed but I have no problem with summary execution if it's called for.

TA

Tom Allen Wed 19 Jun 2019

@adriangodwin in this case the entire page was removed , removing totally unrelated debates between other members. I'm also interested in why you think moderation is needwd to remove anything but that which is illegal?

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

As I said - I prefer locked threads to removal. But I have no idea what actually provoked the removal. And I have sufficient trust in the moderation to start with the assumption that it was justified.
'Assume good faith' is my default position. If that's unjustified it tends to come out in the end, usually with a lot less damage than that caused by trolling. And it's only fun for us all, nobody dies. As I said before, if somebody doesn't like the setup, fork and see if the majority follow. They will, if dissatisfaction is general. But never appeal with an argument of the silent majority. It carries zero weight without evidence.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

@adriangodwin I also agree on the locking over deletion.

I would love to see actually a platform that allows a more fine-tuned control over the content we create, share, and engage with.

From the user experience angle you could like/dislike a paragraph, but not the whole post so that the reaction is more representative and the feedback fine tuned. It would not only be nice to the eyes and brains, but also nudge people into a better organisation and expression of their positions, leading to more nuanced and deep conversation.

On the security side we would have the freedom to apply locking/hiding/deleting of our content at paragraph or post level without impacting anyonelse's own content (if you decide to delete your contribution everybody else read that you have deleted it).

On the technical side I see a graph database, and maybe blockchain.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

Sounds great, but I'm not sure it' s a necessity. Maybe you need to go and build it, and then see if they come. Unlikely to be worth pausing this discussion until we have the perfect platform.

Personally, I'm happy to have a platform that can host discussions without requiring me to sign up to a load of onerous preconditions intended to allow me to be tracked for profit.

I quite like the slashdot model of pushing a poster below a display threshold (but able to be overridden if you're interested in what they said) if they have a poor reputation. I don't like the stackoverflow model of locking every thread that's gone a little offtopic. I LIKE offtopics.
I don't like inflammatory arguments.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Yes @adriangodwin, I'm with you on that, no need to wait for the perfect platform. Definitely was dreaming out loud my ideal one as that allows me to know what I would need to tweak in the one I have.

What do you mean by onerous preconditions?

I'll check out slashdot and I agree with you about StackOverflow.

In principle, I'm sceptical about the sustainability of any system/paradigm that relies on moderators and rules and can't self-regulate.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

Onerous preconditions : allowing FB access to your private messages, tracking your contacts, etc.

Well, yeah. I'd like a utopian anarchism too. But I haven't seen any groups bigger than Dunbar's Number that have been able to achieve it. And plenty smaller that failed :(

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Onerous preconditions: gotcha.

utopian anarchism: I'm not into utopias nor anarchism. I feel a new paradigm can emerge and be successful (ie. Reinventing Organisations).

Re Dunbar's Number limitation (I had to google it): instead of thinking of one monolithic group of max 150 people, I think of many overlapping groups/function/collaborations.

Also, you don't need a group of 300 hundred people creating stable relationships, you can also have two groups of 150 if enough people of group A have stable relationships with enough people of group B and vice-versa.

I'm sure I've read some scientific research on this, but I can't think of which keyword to use now.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

Try degrees of separation : the idea that any two people can be connected by as little as 6 social links.

Unfortunately this contradicts the idea that you can have a society with overlapping Dunbar's Number groups : you wouldn't need many such groups before you were linked to the whole world, which is provably unusable.

To keep the group on-track and exclude damaging trolls (which I'll defined here as people who sow dissent for its own sake and their amusement, rather than the common definition of 'people who disagree with me') you do need to have some sort of relationship with everybody - friend-of-a-friend has to turn into friend.

When London Hackspace was breaking up through lack of community, I happened to visit a building in Dalston for the bsetup for an after-after-burn party. I noticed how well the community held together in a constructive rather than critical way and asked a old-timer how they managed that.

He said 'always say goodbye when you leave'.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

@adriangodwin thanks for engaging and the interesting conversation.

I am strongly against relying on theories and models that explain very well the present and past for predicting the future, its potential, and its challenges. I feel we can learn a lot from what is mapped and what went wrong, but that's about it.

The future is for us to make.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

That's gone a bit abstract. But if I understand you correctly : I don't say religion and politics have no value, or that they can't contribute useful debate. But they're characterised by fixed positions and heated argument. If allowed to intrude into a conversation that's intended to be constructive, they tend to have poor results. They are articles for thoughtful discussion and learning, not for shouting at one another or imposing on people, however strongly one might believe in them.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

As for facebook .. by no means is everyone there. They're leaving in droves leaving only the trolls and the elderly, and with good reason. Nuke it from orbit. If that's where you find your friends, consider redefining who you talk to.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Nuke it from orbit, LOL.

Thanks for the perspective. This year was my first Nest and I had no idea lots of people left, let alone a specific demographic! That's quite suspicious indeed. Now I understand better your forking suggestions... is there any other fork that is already happening that you know of?

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

And even more important, those who left, where are they? What platform do they use? Have they managed to come together around a different project? I'm genuinely curious and I would want to connect with those people who dare to think differently and take a stand.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

First, the teenagers left. They went to Instagram and snapchat I understand : other facebook companies. The remainers had kind of grown with it and thought it was the world. They'll likely stay until it's dead, unless the various regulatory and humanitarian efforts push them elsewhere. Then the big names left in person, fed up with the pointless trolling and backbiting and lack of growth market. They just left media reps behind to maintain an advertising facade.
I don't know where they went, since neither of these groups are people I want anything to do with. The people I want to talk to are mostly where they always were : mailing lists, forums, private groups.
Perhaps they didn't go anywhere, but they probably went somewhere that will do exactly the same thing because of volume - it's not inherently FB that's a cesspool but any such group that's sufficiently big to be profitable. FB is just the latest in a long succession of forgotten names, but the biggest ands most disrespectful so far. Its replacement will be worse, if it's a single organisation.

If you seen any social media site trying to be 'everything', avoid it and burn it with fire. It's just commercial lock-in as a marketing strategy, and you don't want to rely for your connections on something that relies on monetising you.

Small is beautiful.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

Oh, I thought you meant that a specific demographic of Nest members left Facebook.

I'm quite aware of teenagers and facebook adoption. As for big names/corporations, they never really got on it and the platform is not designed for them, so who cares.

I see how your considerations are valid at very high level of abstraction - although I notice a pessimistic bias - but I don't see how they can drive any meaningful action towards change and improvement: everything is doomed, don't change anything.

Am I getting you wrong?

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

Your getting me slightly wrong. I'm not sure it's appropriate to labour my reasons for rejecting facebook here, but I'm happy to explain them at length to anyone who wants.

My objections are not to the people - especially nesters - who compose the facebook nest group. I don't even know who they are. My objection is to the platform itself, and by implication the requirement to join it in order to interact with people who are using it.

I do think you're wrong that names / corporations 'didn't get it'. They get it perfectly. It's you who is being fooled : you're the product facebook is selling to those corporates. You might think it's a harmless and free way to interact with groups of likeminded people . That is indeed how its promoted, but it's not its purpose. I don't have any argument with you doing that (though I think you should understand it before accepting it). I only have an argument with the idea that I should be forced to accept that in order to interact with a community that in principle rejects that very thing.

L

Lozmatron Wed 19 Jun 2019

Hi Tom,
This isn鈥檛 the first time threads have been deleted. A few lively debates started by yourself were removed a little while back ( and I recall you saying that you had deleted them.)

So this does seem like a worthwhile thing to discuss.

I too had screenshots of one of those conversations (it was still open on my computer after being deleted). If I had the time or cared enough (it was down my list of priorities), I might have started a new thread and written a 鈥榗ontext鈥 which reflected the conversation which others could edit if they didn鈥檛 want their views in there... one suggestion for a way forward in this case perhaps, although not an easy solution moving forward as having access to the thread after deletion was a chance encounter.

I agree it鈥檚 upsetting when a thread gets deleted as people have put their time and effort into responding to something (and this would lead me to assume that it is an issue of importance to them).

I wonder if you had considered that before deleting a thread that I had spent a day of my very busy life responding to? It鈥檚 hard to hear the very important message you are trying to get across as it feels a little hypocritical- I hope you can understand why I feel that way...

TA

Tom Allen Wed 19 Jun 2019

this is a very good point. i deleted that thread because you were explaining to me i was doing it wrong and ultimately i agreed with that. i don't feel like i deleted anyone else's points just our conversation. the lasting effect is there, i did learn from it, maybe, a little. i'm trying to learn today as well and you highlighting this has helped. please let me know if you feel there was something of value to others there that was lost, i would consent to you reposting it if you so wished or opening a new thread to discuss it in any way you wanted

DH

Daniel Hurley Wed 19 Jun 2019

Why was this also posted on facebook? That is not what that platform is for.

The admins there should delete it for being off topic. But then we'd get the typical paranoid ramblings of censorship and conspiracy from the usual characters.

S

Simon Wed 19 Jun 2019

Tom's original Facebook post signposted this discussion for those who might be interested. He invited people to get involved here. Seems a perfectly valid reason to post it on Facebook, whether you agree or disagree with his premise.

DH

Daniel Hurley Wed 19 Jun 2019

The different platforms have different purposes. Should we advertise every Loomio post on the facebook page for those who might be interested?

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

@danielhurley1 yes.

DH

Daniel Hurley Wed 19 Jun 2019

Then what is the point of having different comms channels/platforms?

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

@danielhurley1 I think there were few reasons behind this experiment.

But the limitation of the platforms, the degree of their adoption, and the transionational nature of this phase should NOT be an excuse to exclude the majority of nestling from important conversations such as this one.

DH

Daniel Hurley Wed 19 Jun 2019

@amirkhadr Such an important conversation, someone deleted a Loomio discussion they started and it took all the replies with it. Anyone is free to start the discussion again (but no one has).

Loomio is well advertised in the community and people aren't going to adopt it if we persist in having the conversations on facebook anyway.

To shift we need to eventually say "No from now on: A is for X, B is for Y, C is for Z"

S

Simon Wed 19 Jun 2019

This post may have been created in response to that specific Loomio discussion, but it's much broader. It is about co-creating our community standards and values.

If we create a culture where it is accepted that people can delete other people's posts that consisted of hours of time and effort, just because they don't like where the conversation went, It will disincentivise people from engaging in the future. That doesn't seem helpful or constructive.

You say that no one has restarted the conversation. It's been what, one day since it was deleted? Give it time. The topic may not be the same, but there are clearly issues within it which are still very much alive for this community.

People are chatting on Facebook too. So what? The quality of conversation here is much more considered, and what is said on this platform is much more likely to shape the future agenda, as opposed to a facebook thread that will be forgotten after a week.

There has been no criticism of others signposting other Loomio posts. In fact it has been encouraged by many (including the core team), to increase engagement with Loomio. Is your criticism of this post being posted on Facebook because of its specific content, or for any Loomio post to be posted on Facebook?

DH

Daniel Hurley Thu 20 Jun 2019

Simon I am against the deletion of the comments of others.

Facebook should be a front of house and event specific platform. As you say loomio is better for considered conversation and the more in depth discussions that aren't event specific (such as the deletion of a conversation on loomio) do not belong on facebook.

The conversations on facebook over the past few months have descended into utter toxicity and in my opinion should not be occurring on the social media platform that serves as an advertisement and engagement tool to attendees new and old who want to hear about theme camps and travel arrangements not what has essentially become the same 20 or so of us bickering about hierarchy or whatever bullshit.

People are not forgetting the conversations that occur on facebook (the ones leading up to the event were prominently discussed during so in my experience) and the manner in which they've been carried out is now actively harming Nest. You can't have missed the now countless comments in these discussions of people saying how sick and tired they are of the tone of those chats and how potential attendees they know have been turned off from going, we have core team members are having enough and are talking about packing it in because what they feel is abuse directed their way (some already have stepped down I believe), I have a member of my camp who says they don't want to come back next year because of how awful everything is online whenever they log on. So lets push the conversation to where it is more polite and constructive and those who don't want to see how Nest gets made can avoid doing so.

Absolutely let people know Loomio is where the nitty gritty gets hashed out and actively encourage people to come over if they want to get stuck in (rather than having mirrored and lower quality debates/discussion on facebook).

I could be in favour of signposting individual loomio conversations on the facebook page under the following conditions:
* It's Nest specific rather than discussion of how X button works on loomio or whatever
* The facebook post linking to here has comments blocked.
* We're not spamming the page (If 80% of the posts on the facebook page are links to loomio then we need to consider a new method, maybe a weekly post to loomio and a list of the most active chats).

TA

Tom Allen Thu 20 Jun 2019

the FB group has over 2000 members, loomio so far has less than a hundred people posted on it. the idea was to bring the people who wanted to have debates too loomio, so it didn't happen on FB.... it totally backfired, as they all just replied on FB in a very debating way, whilst telling me they didn't want to have debated on FB, on a post telling them debates where now in a new place.... it all got very meta really. i think the problem is that so many people in nest are addicted to FB, me included it seems. i wish i could rise above that, i am trying

AG

Adrian Godwin Fri 21 Jun 2019

2000 ? WTF ?

So, maybe 200 nestlings. 200 more former and otherwise associated nestlings. And 1600 trolls, bots and bikeshedders.
It's hardly any wonder the discussions are toxic : they're not actually people involved with it.

Just. Burn. It.

I'm sorry you're addicted to it. Stop accepting it 'because everyone's there'. Read up on just how bad it actually is, and why. Since you're a tech type, I'd recommend The Register for a suitably cynical view. And don't touch it with a bargepole, for your own sake.

I knew it was bad, I didn't realise just HOW bad.

TA

Tom Allen Fri 21 Jun 2019

i know all about the problems with facebook, and used to read theregister before it got too many paid articles on there too, few places online are safe unless you set them up yourself these days

AG

Adrian Godwin Sat 22 Jun 2019

Absolutely, though since I have no interest in the products they're pushing they don't get much traction with me, and the commenters are of generally good quality (ignoring the US right wingers and the UK.gov astroturfers). In fact, I use google - one of the worst offenders, though a bit less often caught out in outright lies than facebook. One of my measures is that I can track the worst excesses of maybe one or two such vendors but not all of them, so i keep off the vast majority to save time.

LO

Laura O'Brien Wed 19 Jun 2019

Tom is it worth editing your original post and title to reflect the debate in hand, which seems to be about how and why posts are moderated. That way we're discussing solutions rather than making it personal and specific to one action (which turned out not to be to do with censorship by moderators). This bit is I think a pretty good question:

What policy of moderation and deletion do others find acceptable on loomio? Personally I think only illegal content of content which legally jepodises the event or contacts nest is involved in should be deleted and replaced with a statement saying that has happened and why (eg. This post was deleted as it leaked the site address / told people to jump the fence) . Does the person who started a thread own it's comments and have the right to delete it or is it all owned by the community.

TA

Tom Allen Wed 19 Jun 2019

i have done, thanks for the suggestion

LO

Laura O'Brien Wed 19 Jun 2019

In answer to the moderation part of things, I think communication channels are a tool and our approach to how we manage them should be pragmatic. You assess what you're trying to achieve, you assess your capabilities e.g. software, existing culture, and THEN you decide your strategy.

In this case I think people should be allowed to delete their own posts because that's the norm people expect - we expect to have control over our own publishing rather than leaving an indelible mark on the Internet forever. If there isn't tech capability to archive responses to these deleted posts, I don't think it's so important that we should be wasting community resources on coming up with a complex system to address that.

More broadly, it is sometimes appropriate in my opinion to moderate off topic posts, and personal insults/unkind words as done by Extinction Rebellion for example. I think there's a case for removal of off topic threads on Loomio, if we the Nestlings judge that this will help Loomio meet its intended purpose.

AK

Amir Khadr Wed 19 Jun 2019

If anybody can delete the thread they started (for whichever reason) or this becomes something that we just have to deal with, I think i would progressively lose trust in the platform/community and probably stop engaging altogether.

I find extremely wrong the idea that my time, energy, and contribution could be wiped away because someone has decided that they have the right to do so simply because they initiated the thread.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

I would say nothing of value should be on facebook. It's a closed channel with inappropriate usage conditions. It should be used as a publicity channel only, and contain nothing that is not published elsewhere.

Of course, this only applies to an 'official' channel. Anybody is free to have their own facebook group and post whatever they like in it. Nest has both this channel for public debate and a website for publicity. It just shouldn't be a requirement to join a commercial organisation with a different agenda and very dubious morals in order to keep up with Nest doings.

AG

Adrian Godwin Wed 19 Jun 2019

As for deletions, I think Tom's list is overcomplicated. No full thread should ever be deleted except by the owner, and with the agreement of anyone who posted in it. Individual postings might certainly be deleted without notice : but should be replaced by a short posting saying why that happened (and it would normally, but not necessarily, be because it violated guidelines such personally-directed remarks, doxing, spam, trolling etc,). Some threads might be locked rather than deleted if the discussion appears to be unproductive, but might later be unlocked following reasoned discussion.

S

Simon Wed 19 Jun 2019

I like this approach: No deletion of the thread without everyone who has posted's agreement, but individuals can delete their own posts if they want.

RS

Rich S Sat 22 Jun 2019

I agree but would be concerned if mechanically... a person deletes their own post that started a thread, then everything in the thread that followed from others will also get deleted

E

Entropy Thu 20 Jun 2019

What is the point of creating a discussion platform to avoid discussion? If you start a topic people are going to answer. It is easy to keep the answers when they agree. What is difficult is to keep them when they disagree. I do not understand why any post should be deleted by anyone just because they decide that topic is not worth talking about. The main problems I see are these:

-people telling others what to talk about, when to talk about it and how to talk about it. If you do not follow these instructions you are accused of hurting the community. We are being told even what to say. Disagreeing is seen as being disrespectful and harmful.

  • Education: assuming that if I say something you disagree with is because I do not understand what Nest is about and I need to be enlightened in somebody's understanding and experience of it . And if I have a different vision I am again hurting the community.

What is really hurting the community is this constant discussion policing and accusing people of spoiling the event because they do not agree with an official version of it which seems to be a universal truth. I understand moderation and deleting disrespectful insulting posts, particularly if they are a personal attacks.
However, deleting posts because someone does not agree with its content which respectfully express an opinion is censorship. Which is kind of a paradox in an event that promotes radical self-expression. It is kind of: express yourself , but not too much, but not like this, but not on this platform....

Please stop telling people what to say or do just because it is not what you want them to say or do.

S

Simon Fri 21 Jun 2019

I agree with almost everything said here, although as Amir pointed out I think it's more immaturity and lack of awareness of the wider consequences of one's own actions than censorship.

Whilst I think Tom's initial post could have written in a more diplomatic way, I've found some of the Facebook responses very interesting. Some people have written that challenging conversations are scaring people off. I can understand that. As a culture we are not so great at conflict.

We are a large and diverse community, of course we're going to have different views, that's part of the richness of burns. Burns provide us with an opportunity to learn how to engage with others who disagree with us, from a place of openness and compassion. I think we're still in the process of learning how to do that online.

Burns have been a great space for me to meet and engage with people who see the world in a completely different way to me, challenging my beliefs in the process.

What I see as really toxic is a small group of individuals who are actively bullying and shaming anyone who disagrees with them. It seems they are trying to make Nest (and other burns) into a space that only welcomes people who share their perspective.

I've spoken with countless people who don't want to engage with Facebook and have stopped coming to Nest because of the behaviour of these individuals. And I don't know the best way to challenge this, as many have put a lot of time and effort to do this in the past, and this behaviour still continues.

One thing to add (which might just be me misunderstanding you), there is no "official version" of what the event should be, even if some people post/act as if their way is the official way.

A

Amandasm Thu 20 Jun 2019

I like @franellis idea of not deleting threads but perhaps putting something like "concluded" in the title to show a thread has run its course. I don't know if there's the ability to freeze a thread in Loomio? That can be helpful for a discussion that's getting too broad/disorganised to be useful - no deleting but stopping new posts from being added so people can start a fresh thread with more focus.

TA

Tom Allen Thu 20 Jun 2019

loomio has loads of features and is easy to extend too, I intend to start playing more with this in August. If you want to look at a really different way of debating things in the mean time, look at kialo.com there are so many other options than threaded comments like FB and this loomio

CM

Claire McAllen Mon 8 Jul 2019

I agree so much with what is being said here. There is a small group of people shutting down discussion because it goes against their personal views and they don't like what is being said.

And it is then followed up with: these people are volunteers. As if being unpaid means there are no consequences to the choices that have been made.

Up until a few months ago I was reading comment to others and I was shocked at the ferocity and how nasty they became almost instantly.

But it wasn't until i said something that was disagreed with that I suddenly felt the full force of it and the closing of ranks.

One minute I was safely on one side of the wall and part of the 'clique' and the next minute I was thrown from the ballistrads.

That is when you feel the full force of suppression and that accusation that you are an enemy destroying nest.

I have tried to say time and again that because there is a disagreement it doesn't mean you dislike a person

But frankly, I'm not sure that some people have that level of maturity .

This shutting down of conversation because you don't like where the discussion is censorship.

Especially if you are trying to shut down the debate on loomio which is specifically where open debate is supposed to be

And even more so if the discussion is polite.

I am also thinking of leaving nest community as I feel bullied by this

TA

Tom Allen Mon 8 Jul 2019

Totally agree with everything you said there. Sending consentual hugs!