Loomio
Wed 6 Nov 2019

Open Application Network

SG

Simon Grant Wed 6 Nov 2019

To hazard any answer would seem to me perilous. What I would like to see would be a mindset where we keep all our senses open for potential collaborators, and engage with them as soon as we can on the basis of wanting to build the greater commons together.

They might say no - then they are classing themselves as competitors. If they say yes, on condition that everyone has to submit to their assumptions, they're not quite there yet and may need further work. In the ideal case, they say yes as co-commoners, as genuine co-operating collaborators, and then the interesting chapter opens. It needs to be written and continually revised!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

@graham2 thanks for the tip. Looking into them. Two immediate thoughts, though:
* We can expect many people to arrive at some very similar ideas in response to the same set of forces. Sometimes they will know about each other, sometimes not. Even if they know each other, sometimes they will collaborate, sometimes compete.
* Slogan from the 1960's, sorry: two truths don't compete. Meaning, if they are about the greater good, they will collaborate with other people working on parts of the same puzzle.

(@asimong wrote his response at the same time I was writing mine, and we basically agree.) <-brainbug: first I somehow typed disagree there, but I thoroughly agree...>

SG

Simon Grant Wed 6 Nov 2019

(written when I thought Bob was disagreeing :-) ) [...] My approach is to look for points of contact first, because when you identify those points of contact, the way opens to collaboration and synergy. [...]

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

@asimong sorry for the brainfart error. See my correction above. I agree, the "disagree" was a too-fast typing autopilot error.

SG

Simon Grant Wed 6 Nov 2019

:laughing: no prob all is forgiven!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

I had a stroke in my 50's that blew out the language processing section in my left temporal lobe. I could not talk, could not find words. Took about a month of speech therapy to rewire around the damage. But one of the lingering after-effects is oddly saying or auto-typing the opposite of the word I mean. Can confuse people.... :confused:

M

mike_hales Wed 6 Nov 2019

Well, it seems the OAN has a CEO who is

excited for the opportunity for The Open Application Network to own this space and start building solutions for these businesses.

So that sounds pretty corporate and Silicon Valley to me? My hunch would be, it’s another GitHub situation in the making, where some entrepreneur/s (name of Matt Spoke, it seems) is hoping to build a nice bit of monetisable eProperty. OAN is to OAE, as Uber and Facebook are to Sharing Economy?

They have ‘a digital asset’ called AiON. They have a non-profit foundation to ‘maintain standards’. They have business partners. I would hazard a guess this is AN Other tech startup.

Does anyone have time to monitor them some more? Their website is

G

Graham Wed 6 Nov 2019

G

Graham Wed 6 Nov 2019

I agree that the network itself is clearly a capitalist undertaking. What's attractive is that it has a coherent offering and - on the face of it - seems to be offering a solution to some key problems. What's stopping a cooperative/commons/open version of this from coming into being?

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

How does it compare to https://valueflo.ws/ which is being implemented in these parallel projects http://mikorizal.org/futures.html which arose out of OAE?

M

mike_hales Wed 6 Nov 2019

It would be great if someone was able to really work through the comparison @Bob Haugen . As @Graham says, the OAN idea of a solution is probably worth reckoning with, friend or foe. There seems to be quite an amount of development effort behind them.

What's stopping a cooperative/commons/open version of this from coming into being?

Just a hunch: wage labour and venture capital? The ability to pay folks wages, on the basis of anticipated returns on capital later.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

Gaah, I might need to look. But not much motivation given those descriptions...

SG

Simon Grant Wed 6 Nov 2019

Thanks so much for letting me/us know. I will recall that when I read anything that looks strange!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Nov 2019

I would like to blame anything I write that looks strange on brain damage, but it's just that opposite-word thing, and I usually catch it. So don't give me too much slack...

G

Graham Thu 7 Nov 2019

How does it compare? I can only answer from my point of view, which is not at all from a technical perspective, but as a potential user of tools and services. And in practice right now that probably means that my take is as much (if not more) defined by presentation/marketing as by substance. On that score alone OAN stands out. Does that count for anything? In terms of building momentum, and community, and wider support, yes.

G

Graham Fri 8 Nov 2019

If money - or rather the lack of it - is what's stopping/slowing OAE from delivering, what work has been done to secure funding?

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 8 Nov 2019

I can think of five more-or-less OAE-related projects that are either being actively developed now or soon to start.
* HoloREA which has been funded sporadically and may get more because other projects want to use it as a foundation. https://github.com/holo-rea/ecosystem/wiki/Coordinating-the-REA-community-of-practise
* @jonrichter is connected to https://app.solidbase.info/
* https://reflowproject.eu/ will include 2 or 3 OAE peeps
* https://moodle.com/moodlenet/ is sorta related: being developed by people who have been part of OAE and producing some components that some of us will use for other projects, like http://commonspub.org/
* @olisb of OAE is working on https://opencredit.network/ which might or might not count.

Did I miss anything?

But it's fits and starts, by hook or by crook, little by little, etc...

JF

Josh Fairhead Sat 9 Nov 2019

Thanks for the links Bob, I've noted the projects for later exploration (although some of them are familiar already). I'm working with others on hackalong.io (shared infrastructure) and liminalvillage.com (semi-provisioned working space) which may fit in the allies category? I hope so at least :)

BH

Bob Haugen Sun 10 Nov 2019

@joshafairhead

may fit in the allies category?

Seems like it, from a quick skim-through. But OAE is not exactly an organized group. Has a bunch of birds flying in and out in different directions. How do you think about allying? Any ideas of what you would like to do about it?

JF

Josh Fairhead Sun 10 Nov 2019

Amen Bob, same for Hackalong! Lots of flying birds with varying backgrounds and interest.

Re: allying I think it's a case of teach, learn, share - we're just connecting dots in the space and enabling through the provisioning of technical infrastructure and the other things we can afford to provide, while working towards our goals.

Liminal as a co-working/living space is largely intended to become an open innovation hub but were still spinning up and maturing; so far we've run two month long hackalongs out there but were still learning how to do this non-prescriptive self-organising thing to sufficient standards (experimenting and solving local first problems). If theres a friendly respectful crew that wishes to self-organise out there for a month we're likely up for hosting a sprint - so thats another way to collaborate.

For us it's less about forking code and more about the spooning of communities; but in such we do recognise, respect and value the various tribal alliances and identities. In that regards we have a nice set of roughly shared values with Akasha hub Barcelona and are working on bridging to other communities together as part of a SPACE network (network of hubs).

I'd love feedback on the hackalong article also, its unpublished at the moment so its still open for co-creation. Eventually I think we'd like to move to an instance of Ghost for blogging as you can badge the articles with contributors, for now I'm doing it at the bottom of medium...

How about yourself? Any thoughts on allying and how to do such?

BH

Bob Haugen Sun 10 Nov 2019

Any thoughts on allying

I won't have much time to study that article until Tuesday earliest but will do so then.

If I understand correctly, you are mostly focused on F2F communities and meetups, and you are in Europe. I'm in Wisconsin USA so F2F meetups with me are unlikely. But we do have a makerspace trying to organize itself nearby, so that might be an occasion for some cross-fertilizing if and when it gets going.

And several OAE people in Europe might be up for meetups. If so, we hope they will tell stories here...?

The other ways to collaborate would be writing and software projects. I linked to a bunch of OAE-related software projects upthread, and probly other people know others.

JF

Josh Fairhead Mon 11 Nov 2019

Thats cool and yeah were in Europe. Re F2F its personal, local, global - so alone, in community and on the internet. But yes we connect people and best to do so in person where possible. When the makerspace boots up please let us know, I'm also happy to have other OAE people speak up with stories or ping me a request or offer - however people wanna fly.

Re writing/projects on the go, yeah sure, happy to contribute - I enjoyed the list linked above and we were previously talking about using Holodex code etc for some bits. I believe a peer wanted to rejuvenate an old go implementation of liquid sociocracy for the holochain meet in Barcelona which seems to have some touch points... can only see what happens there though and nudge the graph since I don't have the skills to write the code!

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 12 Nov 2019

@Josh Fairhead

I'd love feedback on the hackalong article 

Somewhat random...

I saw a lot of evocative language with anything very concrete buried in links. Might be good to put some concrete examples in the overview. Could probly get some examples from Liminal Village. Could also use some stories from hackalongs: like, what happens? How does it go for participants?

How does a hackalong compare to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconference ? And do you know the https://edgeryders.eu/ ?

https://async.hackalong.io/t/abundance-protocol-theos-io/33/6 could be implemented via https://github.com/holo-rea (eventually, when it gets ready) - but do you have any networks that are ready to do it? I'm writing something somewhat related and am looking for groups that want to do something like that.

JF

Josh Fairhead Tue 12 Nov 2019

Cool, feedback appreciated - thanks for taking the time to have a look. I'm interpreting a signal that says "tone it down, get more concrete" - does that sound about right? One tension is that I'm not particularly inclined to restrict the meme space or bias what others might want to do with "hack-along" by stating in concrete terms what it is - still figuring out how to resolve that (my current intent to change most of the statements into 'what its not' so they can be more concrete without being restrictive...). Further thoughts/guidance appreciated, but to avoid hijacking a thread I'd be cool to take the discussion elsewhere - or we can carry on...

Re: comparison to an unconference I'd suggest Hackalongs are along the same lines but just another flavour of such. Edgeryders.eu is an interesting link, thanks - I'll need to dig into it further for comparison though.

Re: HoloREA & Theos. Sure, I've read the valueflo.ws docs and been keeping a watch on REA, looking forward to it. We're kinda going after getting it done in pieces via hackathons/hackalongs so there are varying degrees of commitment. Obviously Roberto as one of the writers there is fairly committed and also a coder, then Thomas also to large degrees (holo advocate) followed by Pavle and a bunch of Ethereum based hackers. So... its flying birds but Roberto/Thomas would be a good first port of call!

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 12 Nov 2019

Re: comparison to an unconference I'd suggest Hackalongs are along the same lines but just another flavour of such.

Wd be good to say so in that article.

to avoid hijacking a thread I'd be cool to take the discussion elsewhere - or we can carry on...

You can send me an email from Loomio by clicking my avatar and then the Contact... button. If you want to continue in another medium. My only existing question on Theos is not about devs but live networks who want to use that protocol in real life.

JF

Josh Fairhead Wed 13 Nov 2019

Wd be good to say so in that article.

Ok, I've added a note to integrate that idea once the next iteration starts.

If you want to continue in another medium

It's more a consideration in case we're off topic... what do you think?

My only existing question on Theos is not about devs but live networks who want to use that protocol in real life.

Ok, I misinterpreted your question - relevant though! The answer is yes on various levels but probably not on enough. Were dogfooding our tech on ourselves first and foremost - i.e. so far we've been doing un-opinionated open-space and addressing tensions as they arise with lo-tech solutions; i.e. boards (claims/attestations, offers/requests etc). Outside of that theres a bunch of networks out there that we interact with, some more concrete than others. The local community around Ascoli has plenty of initiatives were engaging with such as supply chain (e.g. the wine makers/food producers) and regeneration (mountain area/forest/local industry). There are also other "hubs" looking to solve inter-hub arrangements so were working with some of those also. We're probably missing millions though, just looking at the Cyclos4 map of users these networks feel incredibly abundant, hence taking note of your list for the sake of mapping as capacity increases!

Are you working with many communities yourself? And any we should take note of? (I'm collecting an associative graph). I've been speaking with Anthony Hodgeson of H3 university who seems to provide a decent framework for multi-stakeholder agreements so I'd quite like to gather a cross section of these people once I've tested and validated it: https://www.h3uni.org/project/facilitate-3h-mapping/

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 13 Nov 2019

Are you working with many communities yourself?

http://mikorizal.org/groups.html

And any we should take note of?

Maybe Sensorica and FairCoop.

(I don't know how that will be formatted. The new Loomio editor is quirky...)

JF

Josh Fairhead Wed 13 Nov 2019

http://mikorizal.org/groups.html

Excellent stuff, I've been meaning to search out the Sensorica NRP soft and more info on the lessons learnt from building it... thanks for closing some loops! Your site is good reading :)