Loomio
August 16th, 2016 00:53

Ticket Prices

Danyl Strype
Danyl Strype Public Seen by 654

I just checked how much it costs to attend OS//OS this year. I'm not sure if the people setting the prices realize this, but the unwaged/ student price of $234.70 is more than a week's income for most people on a benefit or student allowance. For anyone living outside of Welly, there is also the costs of travel and accommodation. Only people who are already passionate about open stuff could even consider paying this, so by setting the price of attending this high, we will almost certainly be preaching to the choir. In other words, there is a massive missed opportunity to share open/ libre/ commons principles and practices with the wider community, which is a real shame.

Have you looked into livestreaming the sessions, like NetHui have done, so kiwis who can't afford to attend can still benefit from the amazing programme of speakers and workshops you've put together?

Jesse Maher

Jesse Maher August 16th, 2016 03:10

I agree that it would be great if the price could be lower, but on the other hand, I can't imagine that it would be cheap to run a conference like this, and the cost has to be covered somehow. I know that there are governmental initiatives involved in it, such as Open Data, I wonder if it would be possible to secure more public funding for the event, in order to make the event itself more open?

Silvia Zuur

Silvia Zuur August 16th, 2016 03:47

Thanks for asking @strypey and sorry it is unaffordable. But yes as @jessemaher points out - it honestly is as low we can make. It is aiming to be a financially balanced event. The venue services in isolation cost $70k. I think next year we will continue to explore other options in terms of venues and fixed costs - but Wellington is pretty limited.

In saying all of this - we do want to make it accessible. Yes it will be livestreamed. Thanks to InternetNZ we will be offering that and announcing it soon.

We have also developed a scholarship programme and have created support for a crew of awesome humans to come who would not have been able to make it otherwise. I have put extra funding in this space to ensure these people are both supported and able to come.

Real keen to know if you have other ideas of making it accessible? I can hand on heart tell you I have done my best on the financial side and thus we are working on other associated opportunities.

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 07:57

I certainly wouldn't lower the price. For me it's about quality and longevity. Cheap doesn't = quality or lead to longevity

But the live streaming is a cool idea. I have no idea if the organisers are doing that or not.

Maybe next year the process is gamified and students can earn tickets by participating in things like hackathons. Or contributing code to open source projects. Or doing things for the commons.

Again I prefer that than cheap. Real Open sourcers roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty so I think it might work...

My 2c :)

d

Daniel Lewis

Daniel Lewis August 16th, 2016 08:05

Though there is a relationship between accessibility and price, I think it can be solved in other ways. ie scholarships and sponsorship. Pricing is also related to enterprise viability and I think that this is the more important factor to consider when setting price. If the event is not financially viable than it will not happen or won't happen again.

This is all predicated on planning to deliver a world quality event.

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 08:13

Right. Since it is viable I strongly suggest leaving the price alone and making more awesome conferences :) oh AND gamifying the system as well as your suggestions - somehow :P

d

Daniel Lewis

Daniel Lewis August 16th, 2016 08:19

haha - I do like that idea. I wonder if we could start that now. ie we specify 3 projects and reward peeps with $$ towards there ticket next year. that way you have one year to work your ticket down to free.

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 08:27

That makes total sense to me. I'm keen to explore that some more and help unpack it if Silvia and Ants are keen.

d

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 08:28

Maybe we could make a Chalke Plugin that supports earning tickets :)

Daniel Lewis

Daniel Lewis August 16th, 2016 08:50

oh damn that would be cool - @anthonycabraal I think that would be yet another usp for chalkle :)

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 11:17

You heard it from proto-venture game guy extrudeonour (spelling!!) first :)

Silvia Zuur

Silvia Zuur August 16th, 2016 20:55

Oh yes.... If you two can come up with something I would totally support it! What ever "it" is (within limits ;-) ) - but I think this is a great idea for next year.

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 16th, 2016 22:32

@daniellewis and I might have to have a cawfee together in the not too distant future... maybe this can also be part of the wider "Gamification of Enspiral" conversation I need to have with @joshuavial on his return...

Anthony Cabraal

Anthony Cabraal August 16th, 2016 23:18

@strypey if you get in touch directly happy to look at what we could do for you to make this accessible. It is a very tight cost /budgeted model but we are committed to doing what we can. If you can email me directly: anthony.cabraal@enspiral.com happy to try and find a way to make this work. Thanks for reaching out!

Isabella Cawthorn

Isabella Cawthorn August 16th, 2016 23:21

Kia ora koutou

There are many new terms for me in this thread but it's abundantly clear that this is an awesome initiative. Good on youall.

Isabella

Sent on the move - please excuse the brevity and any typos.

Isabella Cawthorn

021 1497941

Dmitry Sokolov

Dmitry Sokolov August 17th, 2016 03:33

Strypey, You are right.

I am not going for this and some other reasons.
I am also trying to convince people for collective intelligence online.
Meetings are good for emotional exchange.
Online is more porductive, to my experience.

BTW, did you see recent changes on LikeInMind?
We accepted DMOZ taxonomy for our systematic studies.
Helps us to see what knowledge is available/missing.

Your thoughts?
Dimitri

Greg Cassel

Greg Cassel August 17th, 2016 20:54

It looks like you have valuable perspective regarding the relationship of in-person meetings to online interactions, @falcondot . This is close to my personal work in media theory.

I certainly agree that in-person meetings are good for emotional exchange and, in fact, for emotional bonding. There are pros and cons to that. When we bond emotionally with specific persons and groups, we prioritize those relationships in our interactions. Such priorities may or may not add value to a larger community. I think this depends deeply on whether our interactions aim to create (1) inclusive value for a larger community or (2) exclusive value/ privilege for the participants in those interactions. I think that's an ongoing struggle which we all, including OS//OS attendees, face.

You wrote:

Online is more porductive, to my experience.

That's vague, and I think we need to be clear about the deep difference between live telecommunications (especially voice and or video meetings) and our asynchronous transfers of (at least temporarily recorded) data packets and media items. You seem deeply acquainted with systems theory, so I guess you know what I mean here?

To me, live tele-meetings with voice and/or video are much more akin to in-person meetings than they are to our asynchronous online media sharing and discussion formats.

So, I guess you were implying that asynchronous online interactions are more productive than both [in-person meetings and live tele-meetings]. Is that right, or mostly right?

I'd personally agree that whenever we're dealing with complex, long-term goals, we can produce more unified results by using asynchronous interactions than by not using them. I note however that we don't need to choose between live and asynchronous interactions. This ties back to my statement about the aims of interactions, and inclusive vs. exclusive value...

Live interactions are intense opportunities to not only bond emotionally, but to exchange and iterate ideas at a rich bandwidth of both conceptual complexity and interactivity. That's very powerful. I think it's just a question of how we try to relate our meetings to broader contexts and communities.

If a live meeting (such as OS//OS) adds real value to a larger community, I believe that its participants can represent that value in persistent media forms which are meaningfully related (and accessible) to the larger community.

As for ticket prices: I personally wouldn't be able to come (overseas) to OS//OS even if I had free admission. However, I think that ticket scholarships or sponsorships (as @daniellewis suggested) are a great idea.

I think OS//OS is a priceless opportunity for people to meet and network towards more open, accessible and sustainable relationships on all scales of society. I hope everyone has a good time!

Isabella Cawthorn

Isabella Cawthorn August 18th, 2016 01:41

Hi Greg

Looks like you're a bit of an expert in what makes groups like communities work (or not)! It'd be good to have a chat with you - I'm doing some work that will need some expertise :-)

Cheers

Isabella

Sent on the move - please excuse the brevity and any typos.

Isabella Cawthorn

021 1497941

Dmitry Sokolov

Dmitry Sokolov August 18th, 2016 04:01

Hi Isabella, Greg and others,

I am also interested in organising communities, management of
self-organising teams. My project team collects information on
this topic here:

http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/103831055/Self-Organising%20Teams%20Best%20Practices

More links and pages on the topic can be found at the bottom of
the page. Pages are interconnected in a knowledge network. A
"visual taxonomy" mode is also available by clicking the blue
circle at the first line of the page.

Please take a look and suggest resources missing. It would be
great if you could participate in our knowledge network by
contributing your knowledge too.

My attentions is mostly on the LikeInMind FB group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LikeInMind/

Please join and tag me if you need more help / info.

Sorry for missing messages in this mailing list.

Thank you beforehand,

Dimitri

( http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/58278361/DmitrySmall.jpg ) Advanced Knowledge Management

Nemetics Research Institute

Dmitry
Sokolov

PhD
Phys, MEng, MPA

Mob: +64 27 44 809 41

dmitry.v.sokolov@gmail.com

View Dmitry
Sokolov's profile on LinkedIn ( http://nz.linkedin.com/in/falcondot )

Daniel Lewis

Daniel Lewis August 18th, 2016 04:04

lol this is a total thread fork - I suggest you peeps start a new thread to do with "organising communities and management of
self-organising teams".

That way you will attract others that want to talk about such things rather than ticket prices :)

Dan Milward

Dan Milward August 18th, 2016 04:36

Strong agreement!

Isabella Cawthorn

Isabella Cawthorn August 18th, 2016 10:01

Kia ora koutou

New thread here for the communities / self-organising discussion https://www.loomio.org/d/Flm5YKqz @falcondot , @gregorycassel , anyone else !

Danyl Strype

Danyl Strype August 22nd, 2016 08:26

Thanks to @silviazuur and @anthonycabraal and everyone else for your comments. Glad my sqeaky wheel produced some thoughtful discussions. I wasn't able to make it to Welly for personal reasons, but I'd like to reply a couple of things anyway.

@danmilward said:

Cheap doesn't = quality or lead to longevity

Sure, but expensive doesn't necessarily serve either of those values either. Expensive consumer products are usually designed to crap out within 1-2 years, just like cheap ones. The main difference is the disposable income of the demographic they are marketed at. Both open source development and crowdfunding prove that you can get investment in the form of many small contributions as easily - or more easily for groundbreaking work - as you can in the form of a small number of large contributions.

In a world where a tiny minority have most of the money, the simplest and most tempting business model is selling to a small number of rich customers at a price only they can afford. But surely the whole point of social enterprise, and applying open source values to fields outside software, is that although it's more challenging to serve a larger audience who can afford to spend less, it's also ethical and necessary.

@daniellewis

Though there is a relationship between accessibility and price, I think it can be solved in other ways. ie scholarships and sponsorship.

Possibly, but my point is to think about how inviting the whole thing is to someone outside the free/ libre/ open/ tech/ start-up culture. You know, the people who could actually have their minds blown (in a good way) by attending something like OS//OS. People who intuitively grasp that there are social and technological possibilities beyond the old 20th century debates of state vs. market and capitalism vs. communism, but are struggling to find ways to articulate those possibilities. Such people, if they are unwaged, will look at that ticket price and say "oh, I guess this isn't really meant for people like me".

Scholarships and sponsorships could work, but only if they are prominently linked to the ticket page, and/or the home page from which you find the ticket page. Other things that improve accessibility for people on low incomes include assistance with travel equalization/ facilitated ride-sharing, accommodation (billeting/ couchsurfing through a platform like BeWelcome.org), and as others have mentioned, providing childcare.

My other point is that although conferences are great for getting a large group of people to focus intensively on a certain kaupapa for a fixed period of time, they are not sustainable unless and until we come up with a way of moving passengers between cities and countries using renewable energy. With that in mind, in makes sense to support remote participation at least as much as in-person attendance, and deeply integrate online participation so that it comes as close as possible to being there. Maybe we could create simultaneous in-person gatherings in multiple cities connected by digital networks to make one meta-conference.

There are lots of creative possibilities to be explored in terms of both affordability of physical attendance, and support for full participation of digital attendees.

William Mckee

William Mckee September 13th, 2016 07:24

Lower Price would be nice. Kiwicon costs 80/30 dollars. Ability to volunteer for the event would be great - I offered but heard basically nothing back. Hire NextDayVideo (http://nextdayvideo.com/) for AV and get Volunteers on AV.