Loomio
Sun 15 Oct 2017 3:29PM

New social.coop services?

MDB Mayel de Borniol Public Seen by 36

Hey all, as it's come up several times before, and was again discussed in the last call, why not add services other than Mastodon on social.coop?

We could occasionally install an interesting FLOSS service, and all have the chance to try it out, to see how usable / user-friendly / useful it is. If the software is mature / useful enough for us, we can keep it running and try to provide the developers with contributions (code + financial), otherwise we can just give them some feedback, scrap it, and try another option.

Criteria for social.coop member services

IMO our criteria would be (in order of importance):

  1. FLOSS
  2. User friendly
  3. Based on open standards / protocols
  4. Federated / Decentralised
  5. Social / Collaborative / Co-operative

Proposed next steps

  1. Comment with your opinion on this whole initiative. If there doesn't appear to be consensus on moving forward with this, we can first discuss the premise further.
  2. Comment with your thoughts / ideas about the criteria. Once there appears to be consensus, I can post a proposal to formalise this.
  3. Discuss the financial aspects:
    • some more lightweight services could run on our existing infrastructure (esp. with the upcoming upgrade), but others would require more resources (notably storage costs would go up with things like file hosting).
    • how to compensate the members who would install and maintain the services, and contribute to developing the software
  4. Comment with any services you need (or software that may be worth trying) and I'll update the list below. Once we have a semi-comprehensive list of options, we can discuss them more in depth, and then decide where to start!

Possible services

Identity and single sign-on options

  1. Custom social.coop member database & web app, using OpenID/OAuth, and maybe integrate IndieAuth
  2. Look into projects like Portier, Auth0, and OSIAM
  3. Look into building on top of Hubzilla, which has a federated system featuring nomadic identity (a user can migrate from one instance to another, unlike with Mastodon). It also has social networking functionality that can federate with Mastodon (though doesn't seem to support ActivityPub). May be be a good option if we want all our services to be tightly integrated, with federation at their core, but would require more hacking on any software we want to add (which could arguably benefit the whole FLOSS community and push it from the current app/platform silos towards more federation & integration).

FLOSS, federated services

FLOSS, not-yet-federated services

Meta-platforms

FLOSS utilities

These would be handy for members to have on a platform we control, but don't necessarily meet the Federated / Decentralised nor the Social / Collaborative / Co-operative criteria.

MDB

Mayel de Borniol Mon 16 Oct 2017 9:30AM

Another option may be Mailpile which is a modern webmail with built in PGP that can connect to any IMAP server.

TB

Thomas Beckett Mon 16 Oct 2017 3:37PM

I like this idea. I don't have a lot of knowledge about the FLOSS world lately, I'd welcome the opportunity to try out new apps & services.

MDB

Mayel de Borniol Mon 16 Oct 2017 4:40PM

FYI there's a interesting conversation about collaborative doc editors happening here: https://social.coop/web/statuses/1948774

Including this from @horatiotrobinson:

Jetpad is a better looking and less powerful clone of Etherpad.
Sharelatex and Hackmd are more powerful but also more specialised, less general-purpose.
Sharelatex is LaTeX document oriented. Hackmd is code-oriented

All 4 make their source code available, except Sharelatex shares only a basic version, a more powerful server is available commercially.

All 4 are nodejs-based, but Etherpad-Lite comes with an API that allows for Ruby integration

DB

Doug Belshaw Mon 16 Oct 2017 8:07PM

Again, can I ask that we focus on user needs? The language we're using here is pretty exclusionary for less technical members of social.coop. We're all here because we're interested in co-operativism, not discussing developer-focused technologies. There's plenty of places to discuss the pros and cons of various stacks and languages... ;)

@h Mon 16 Oct 2017 8:23PM

Languages are important and non-exclusionary when it comes to analysing the costs. Costs are facts of life that programmers can't avoid. I'm doing my best to explain that costs exist and you can't make good decisions ignoring costs. That's not exclusionary, that's "inclusionary", in any case.

I'm aware that there are plenty of other places. Thanks for the suggestion.

JE

Johannes Ernst Mon 16 Oct 2017 11:35PM

Newbie here. Excellent idea with lots of potential!
I've been working with a few friends in the IndieWeb community to come up with http://indietech.rocks/ -- a "list of products that doesn't screw us" and which should have large overlap with what would be acceptable here.
Also, I'm the primary developer of UBOS (http://ubos.net/ ) a Linux distro specifically created for self-hosting web apps. It would be really easy to host and in particular maintain installations of apps such as Nextcloud if anybody here has any interest. Happy to help out.

MK

Michele Kipiel Tue 17 Oct 2017 8:53AM

Hi all! This discussion is shaping up nicely, and for that I thank you all. Before we get lost in technical details, though, how about we run a dot vote so all the members can prioiritize what's important for them? Does it make sense to you?

MDB

Mayel de Borniol Tue 17 Oct 2017 10:26AM

Yes, it's exciting to see all this shared enthusiasm about the possible solutions and how they could be tied together into the social.coop ecosystem! :) And I apologise to @dougbelshaw and any other member who felt excluded from this conversation. I'll try to write down my thoughts in layman’s terms:

We're in a pretty unique position here in that we already have a community of users who I think have gathered based on shared values (e.g. “I want my social media to be more decentralised/co-operative/user-centric/non-oligarchic/democratic/free-software-based/etc”), rather than shared needs (e.g. “I need a social media app”).

The way I see it, we're in a very different position from a startup founder (“oh! here's a [semi-]new idea, let's see if we can persuade people they need it”) or a free/libre software (FLOSS) developer (“oh! what a cool technical challenge!”). None of the services we'll be offering are unique (the needed functionality can already be found elsewhere), but what is unique is the values that will underpin them, which besides the co-operative way in which we will operate them, I think also includes how good a UX they offer, the values and dedication of their developers, if/how they can federate, how they're licensed, what technologies they're built with, and their hackability (to what extent and with how much effort we'll be able to customise/adapt them to our needs).

We have the chance here to bridge the gap between FLOSS developers and users, who often simply need an accessible and convenient way to, for example, share their availability and book appointments without Google mining their data, and without their correspondent being required to also use the same service provider.

Anyway, I was hoping to get some discussion going around points 2 (consensus on the criteria, which I hope the above will help trigger) and 3 (financial sustainability) before moving ahead with point 4 (choosing what services to start with). But if you prefer, like @michelekipiel suggested, I can start an open poll (so everyone can add options) for members to indicate what types of services they'd most want to see on social.coop (eg. Shared calendar app, Secure group chat) as a first step (leaving the choice of what software/solutions to try first for each type of service for later).

DU

Matt Meyer Thu 19 Oct 2017 3:10AM

Has anyone tried Patchwork / SSB? It might be cool to explore hosting a social.coop SSB pub https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/basics/pub.html

NS

Nathan Schneider Thu 19 Oct 2017 3:49AM

I've tried it. It's a bit rough. But yeah, it's very much aligned with what we're doing. I'm just nervous about competing with Mastodon, which itself doesn't feel like a critical mass yet.

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