Loomio
Tue 5 Aug 2014

Linked Open Data

ST
Simon Tegg Public Seen by 73

One of the interesting points to come out of the Communicating OpenApp thread was the current focus on Linked Open Data.

Open-App stakeholders unfamiliar with the concept might wonder what Linked Open Data is and what is has to do with "tools for commons-based peer production" and user value.

Use this thread to ask questions about Linked Open Data and what it means for Open-App. I'll update it with my own comments.

Resources:
Tim Berners-Lee TED talk on Linked Open Data

What is Linked Data? video

What is JSON-LD? video

JSON API :: A standard for building APIs in JSON

For more detailed and advanced topics you can check out http://www.euclid-project.eu/

ST

Simon Tegg Tue 5 Aug 2014

I'm quite excited about the potential of Linked Open Data. I see at as the next evolution of the web. Though I probably need to justify what I mean by that.

I think technology has biases. In energy systems for example, rooftop solar has a bias towards homeowners while nuclear power has a bias towards large centralised power companies. Loomio has deliberate built-in biases towards "collaborative decision-making".

I think Linked Open Data has a bias towards individual users, "managed trust" groups and the commons, and away from monopolistic platform providers.

One part of Linked Open Data is using standard vocabularies to make applications interoperable. This is like the technical version of "shared understanding" but for machines!

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 5 Aug 2014

Life starts by a link
so I'll start in this conversation as my link to this group :-)
here's one of the standard vocabularies for many things
https://schema.org/docs/full.html

in open source movements it is recommended to use, as much as possible, field names and description types, as a way to start sharing standard namings for anything we specify and describe.

If we all share the way we call things, things can be compared, put together, compiled, joined, mixed up..etc
On the other hand when similar things have a different names it's almost impossible to know they are the same.

it's standardisation to strengthen diversity :-)
since these ontologies are open to contribution of new properties

TH

Timothy Holborn Wed 5 Oct 2016

working on https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1337 and am interested in collaborative assistances :)

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 5 Aug 2014

This is an important topic to discuss in some detail, which, as we know, is where the devil lurks.

One of the details that I do not yet understand is the full use of linked data. (I mean, I understand what people are saying about it, but I do not yet understand from experience.)

I understand about interoperability and message-communication between peers. But http://linkeddata.org/ says "Linked Data is about using the Web to connect related data..."

I understand from that the emergence of a layer above individual Web pages, which they often depict in network diagrams, as in http://lod-cloud.net/versions/2011-09-19/lod-cloud.html. (Although that diagram, curiously, links stuff that has been centralized into http://datahub.io - and the links take you to pages on that site, not to the original sources. Wonder why...)

So do we foresee uses of some kind of overview in OpenApps? What would it do for us? @tiborkatelbach says "things can be compared, put together, compiled, joined, mixed up..etc". What are some examples of what we could do like that?

And what other uses of linked data have I not even thought of yet?

I am asking these questions for my own understanding, but also because I want to tell a compelling story about linked data and the importance of openness in that respect to some friends in academia who don't get it at all yet.

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 5 Aug 2014

Another of the details to discuss is that many of the supposedly-authoritative sources of linked data also have biases. For example, http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org/

It is biased toward internal organization charts in hierarchical companies. It will not work for value networks or any other kind of P2P organization. Or even traditional company supply chains and value systems.
What do we do about that?

And that's not the only one. Schema.org also has a bias, although I can't quite put my finger on it yet. Seems like one of those everything-including-the-kitchen-sink collections that happens when a group of stakeholders wants to include everybody's contribution. Which is nice for them, but you were not a stakeholder, it may not work for you, and it's not very logical ontologically. One of the problems is that many of the nodes in the tree have cross-relationships, like SellAction and BuyAction. So it should be a network, not a tree.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 5 Aug 2014

“things can be compared, put together, compiled, joined, mixed up..etc”
"semantic web and linkeddata standards" simply mean using a common vocabulary

so in different contexts (websites, applications..) when talking about the same thing, ex: 3 websites talking about "Cucumbers", a robot can figure it out thanks to the common vocabulary, linking those 3 talks to a unique instance Cucumber.
By using the common language those three sites are working towards inter-connectivity opening up to a larger picture like who are the cucumber experts, cucumber images, cucumber species ...etc
LinkedData gives
- a context to things
- a hierarchy or a parenthood to things
- helps organize and classify things
and much more

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 5 Aug 2014

@tiborkatelbach - thanks. Can you (or anybody else) think of practical examples in an OpenApp situation? For example, the OpenApp roadmap plans to have Loomio and Cobudget be the first apps to be interconnected. How would linked data be used in that context?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 5 Aug 2014

sorry dont pay attention to my previous post thought there were discussion about this.

if both projects are structured using semanticWeb and LD they'll automatically understand each other because they'll be using the same words.
For example when talking about a Project , if in both cases a project is described using DOAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOAP
Then they'll easily be able to pick and use whatever the need work with. the access to the information is done using an API.

Combining

- an open API
- Semantic Web
- Linked Data
give you a real Open App
:-)

LF

Lynn Foster Tue 5 Aug 2014

Here is a use case, which I think is real, but others can correct if not:

Let's say there are person, group, and association data (to simplify for this example, this can be associations between people and groups). The data lives on different servers, let's say Enspiral, Sensorica, and Mikorizal. Each of these servers has an instance of the Person and Group apps, which uses and exposes linked data which has the same ontology.

Each piece of data has to have a system of record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_of_record), and anything else is a cached copy. So, Mikorizal is my primary "space" and my person data lives there (system of record). Let's say I am a contributor to Enspiral and Sensorica. I'm thinking my association to Enspiral lives on the Enspiral server and my association to Sensorica lives on the Sensorica server. So, Enspiral and Sensorica Group apps need to get my person data from Mikorizal whenever they need it, or cache it on their servers? And at least need to cache the identifier?

And whatever non-identifier data is cached needs to be updated using some protocol, perhaps triggered by change to the system of record?

Is this real or am I missing something I should know about linked data? What is the mechanism for apps to retrieve linked data from other places when they need it? What is the mechanism to update cached data? How would identifiers get formed? URLs? (There are many Lynn Fosters.) If so, what if I want to move my system of record person data to another server and instance of Person app?

These are the things my perhaps-overly-detail-oriented brain wonders. :) Thanks!

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 5 Aug 2014

Maybe I should explain a bit about where I am coming from in my linked data questions. I understand the sales pitch. But the sales pitch has been pitched for 15 years. The original pitchers are tired and disappointed. See
http://www.mkbergman.com/1771/a-decade-in-the-trenches-of-the-semantic-web/
The stuff never took off the way they hoped.

Now, sometimes new ideas take that long to be adopted. But the pitch has changed over time, too: from capital S Semantic Web to little s semantic web to JSON-LD to just use plain JSON and link to a context document:
http://hublog.hubmed.org/archives/001984.html

So there's some friction and pretty constant push back. Even the editor of the JSON-LD spec complains about the big S Semantic Web.
http://manu.sporny.org/2014/json-ld-origins-2/

I'm not coming from any of those viewpoints. I'd like to see the stuff work. But I want to think about how it will work in our context, and what we will do with it, in some excruciating detail.

P.S. I don't mean this as criticism for overview-type responses, they are also useful. I was not clear about where I was coming from. Trying to be more clear now.

CS

Caroline Smalley Tue 5 Aug 2014

I asked the programmer I work with (http://stackoverflow.com/users/479863/mu-is-too-short ) to explain this thread (am a layman when it comes these things!)

He pointed to Bob's comment saying:
"This pretty much sums it up: https://www.loomio.org/d/5WOvZfEq/linked-open-data#comment-174375

That "15 years" should be more like "25-30 years". Things like this predate the web by a long long time."

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 5 Aug 2014

@carolinesmalley - “25-30 years”? Little did I know...;-)

M

Mikey Wed 6 Aug 2014

@lynnfoster:

identifiers are URLs, yes.

the mechanism to distribute changes from the primary records to replica copies is independent of Linked Data. this is all an open question, however a possible solution that would work today is using Linked Data Fragments to do federated queries across "spaces" you trust to find the data you want, then if you want to update or listen to changes just do it directly to the "space" that owns the data. more mad science distributed data systems are gundb and secure-scuttlebutt.

EP

elf Pavlik Wed 6 Aug 2014

I recommend watching those two videos:

Manu also coauthored RDFa spec and now leads http://web-payments.org effort (AFAIK thanks to which JSON-LD came to existence)

For more detailed and advanced topics you can check out http://www.euclid-project.eu/

Last but not least, I hope everyone developing for the web have taken some time to read: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

CS

Caroline Smalley Wed 6 Aug 2014

@bobhaugen ...he's old!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@carolinesmalley - I'm 73. Older than dirt.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@elfpavlik - euclid looks pretty comprehensive, thanks!

CS

Caroline Smalley Wed 6 Aug 2014

@elfpavlik thanks for the vids :) watched one.. and no I haven't read.. took a quick look, but to be honest, it's somewhat over my head!

okay.. so, in seeking to figure out what all this means in a practical / where's the relevance to me 'layman's' kinda way, here's where I'm at:

guess what i'm thinking is CM creates a backbone that apps (all bells and whistles aka 'features') plug into and end result is OpenApp Ecosystem. there could be multiple backbones for different platforms but if the backbones share transferable (translatable?!) protocols, then all data could be shared somewhat seamlessly. if we implement key words (data fields) that relate to the work / what we're trying to achieve, we could map relationships that would accelerate our abiltiy to get there. see idea of Data Analysis for creation of a Prosperity Graph (came up with the idea a while back when a data analyst asked me "what sort of graph would CM create?") http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/data-analysis?id=1155

think i've sent this already, but here's a link to platform we've built. so what would the backbone comprise of? what's the skeleton, so to speak? thinking the answer = the cms, which we've designed to connect distributed data. blogs (with language translation) becomes an app, profiles... and so on. http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/the-platform?id=1119

sorry guys.. bad to kindergarten?!

CS

Caroline Smalley Wed 6 Aug 2014

@bobhaugen relativity + blackholes?!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@carolinesmalley - is the source for that stuff open? e.g. github repo, whatever? (Forgive me if it was obvious and I'm blind...)

EP

elf Pavlik Wed 6 Aug 2014

Maybe sharing simple example I played with can help with avoiding drifting into black holes ;)

If it will sound confusing, I plan to record short screencast and already have sequence diagram for it which can make it clearer. I made 4 very simple elements:

webfingerd simply helps to discover my profile page from my email address, so having perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org it will return https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper (or any other URL I want)

webprofiled serves my Linked Data profile, currently supporting RDFa and JSON-LD
to see graph embeded in RDFa just copy source of https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ and paste into http://rdfa.info/play/
to see JSON-LD one can use simple Content-Negotiation, in terminal: $ curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ -H "Accept: application/ld+json" BTW HTML page with RDFa gets generated from that JSON-LD currently with mustache but I plan to yank out part of http://viejs.org to do it in nicer way

webserviced offers for now just login/logout with Mozilla Persona and discovery of Linked Data profile location via webfinger

webfingerd, webprofiled, webserviced all do http://enable-cors.org/

greeting-app just provides super basic SPA to interact with webserviced. for now I can login from browser javascript console with navigator.id.request()
then it sends it to webprofiled (easily hosted on different domain than one which serves greeting-app). once i do persona dance webservice will get from webfingered URL to my webpage powered by webprofiled and then get data in JSON-LD. after that it sends it to greeting-app which greets me with my name and avatar.

let's imagine now that we replace webserviced with loomio backend and greeting-app with loomio frontend. this way i can just click 'Login with Persona' and it will greet me my name, avatar, know my current location, languages i speak, whatever i decide to publish in my independent homepage, in my case powered by webprofiled but someone else can just write it with text editor, use Drupal, Wordpress whatever :)

Once front end connects to CORS aware services, it can for example send my posts and comments, at the same time to my Personal Data Space and to instance(s) of loomio backend. It may make less sense for discourse type of features, but if I want to offer a rideshare or couch, nowadays I can't easily post it to http://blablacar.com , http://carpooling.com, http://liftshare.com etc. I also can't use my favorite trip planner app but need to deal with different human (graphical) interface to interact with 'different' services which in practice offer exactly the same functionality. Lately I find the last issue of big importance, imagine if you would need to use the same email client that your friend uses to receive a message (hell no!) relevant links here: http://decoupledcms.org/ & http://hydra-cg.com/

IMO having common vocabularies to express concepts we interact with ( http://schema.org & http://lov.okfn.org ) as well as common ways of specifying what interaction we can have with those resources (http://schema.org/Action & http://hydra-cg.com ) gives us nice foundation for building systems which can interoperate :)

BTW I would encourage technical folks to join http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg and less technical ones to join: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig

I hope this post didn't run to long or got to confusing...

CS

Caroline Smalley Wed 6 Aug 2014

@bobhaugen it will be! through PPL is the intention (http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/peer-production-design?id=1171) we'll be re-writing in either python or ruby. we began building back in 2006.. what we were trying to achieve in terms of key goals along with our thinking = practically the same as Joshua speaks to.

what's worth keeping is what we've learned in building distributed architecture. (note info and link i sent to access sandbox)

i asked Eric how to answer: (and yes.. he does keep a github)
The code isn't open right now and can't be shared with anyone until there's been time to do a full sweep to make sure nothing private (such as keys, passwords, ...) is in there. I think a lot of the existing code is obsolete anyway, there's still a lot of stuff in there that's leftover from the state of the art (or more accurately, the lack of useful frameworks and such) as of 2006 when I started it. I don't think there's anything worth bothering with in the source code, the database schema and maybe some of the internationalization/localization ideas are the only bits worth considering IMO.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@elfpavlik - your comment was not too long, I really want those kinds of details. Thanks!

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@carolinesmalley - would be good to have somebody rewrite the PPL to cover software a bit more explicitly.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@elfpavlik - you wrote " I plan to record short screencast and already have sequence diagram for it which can make it clearer."

Yes please, sequence diagram!

EP

elf Pavlik Wed 6 Aug 2014

@bobhaugen moved this topic to https://www.loomio.org/d/Aho7cdZP/webdpack-exmple

CS

Caroline Smalley Wed 6 Aug 2014

@bobhaugen agreed. perhaps something that will drop out of this process? difficult to say. my personal take is that the only way to get answers is get it going. guessing there will need to be some kind of stackoverflow rating system that 'weighs' a programmers contribution to whatever app's being developed, then anything anyone does in using the app for commercial gain get's distributed in proportion to contribution/rating. lots of potential to get kinda messy.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

@carolinesmalley - We'd like to develop a treatment of this for software development. Based on github commits.

Source: https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork

It's now being used for open hardware creation and document workflows.

We're here in the OpenApp Ecosystem to figure out if we can turn it into a bunch of open apps.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 6 Aug 2014

Okay, so what is the collective noun for Open Apps? (Like, a flock of pigeons, or a murder of crows, or ...?)

ST

Simon Tegg Wed 6 Aug 2014

an ecosystem of apps..? :)
Note: the way Mikey and have been talking about it internally is "services" (api's that do one thing), "apps" that have a frontend and probably combine and use several "services".

"stores" are a particular sort of "service" for data resources , and are how React describe a similar concept.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 22 Aug 2014

@elfpavlik thanks for the great links to bounce on, especially Socialwg. I requested to join but it seems not so straight forward process

EP

elf Pavlik Fri 22 Aug 2014

@tiborkatelbach please see: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership
also for now everyone can more easily join
http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig

ST

Simon Tegg Wed 27 Aug 2014

This Reddit thread provides some good backround discussion on "Why isn't the [Semantic Web] taking over the world after a decade?"
http://www.reddit.com/r/semanticweb/comments/2eo6rj/why_isnt_semweb_taking_over_the_world_after_over/

ST

Simon Tegg Fri 12 Sep 2014

One of the core designers of JSON-LD Marcus Lanthaler and Dmitri Van Hees will be giving workshops on Linked Data at the API conference in the Uk later this month. Hopefully their talks make it online.

JR

Jon Richter Mon 22 Sep 2014

First of all, thanks for the EUCLID and mkbergman links.

From the perspective of the TransforMap/MMM project, Linked Open Data is the preferred way of integrating multiple (150+) data sources, even if it is only referred to as a blueprint.

What I see especially challanging, next to all admittedly already thrilling technical questions, is the social process of creating shared vocabularies. The d:swarm alpha, coming from library sciences with help from AKSW, is one of the interfaces that I can imagine becoming a collaborative ontology editor. Very much like AKSW's OntoWiki approach.

Fortunately philosophy already tells us that the world seems to exist as a multitude of local ontologies and no universal streamlining is neccessary.

ST

Simon Tegg Tue 23 Sep 2014

PM

Paul Mackay Tue 30 Sep 2014

@bobhaugen you might want to check https://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/open-sustainability/2014-September/000374.html and comment. Seems to closely relate to your value network project? And others in this group could be interested :)

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 30 Sep 2014

@paulmackay1 - thanks a lot. I'll see if I can make contact.
(followup: I did make contact with Philipp Grunewald, who sent me some questions, and I sent some answers, and so far, that was the end of the conversation. If anybody would actually like to read the conversation, let me know, but it probably is not going anywhere.)

JR

Jon Richter Thu 2 Oct 2014

There are lots of technical formalisms in the paper that I don’t understand, and to my mind the paper does not actually identify the “secrets” to engineering digital commons. But that’s okay. What is more important to me, for now, is that there are computer scientists deliberately trying to figure out how to engineer “planned emergence,” as Pitt et al. put it. The scientists envision “a new type of intrinsically adaptive institution” that can adapt to rapid changes in the social, technological and physical environment (unlike contemporary government). They also seek to combine “top-down control and coordination [with] bottom-up emergence and adaptation” in order to create hybrid institutions.

via Bollier.org about a pay-walled paper on Axiomatization of Socio-Economic Principles for Self-Organizing institutions. The full abstract:

We address the problem of engineering self-organizing electronic institutions for resource allocation in open, embedded, and resource-constrained systems. In such systems, there is decentralized control, competition for resources and an expectation of both intentional and unintentional errors. The “optimal” distribution of resources is then less important than the endurance of the distribution mechanism. Under these circumstances, we propose to model resource allocation as a common-pool resource management problem, and develop a formal characterization of Elinor Ostrom’s socio-economic principles for self-governing institutions. This article applies a method for sociologically inspired computing to give a complete axiomatization of six of Ostrom’s eight principles in the Event Calculus. A testbed is implemented for experimenting with the axiomatization. The experimental results show that these principles support enduring institutions, in terms of longevity and membership, and also provide insight into calibrating the transaction and running costs associated with implementing the principles against the behavioral profile of the institutional membership. We conclude that it is possible to express Ostrom’s principles in logical form and that they are necessary and sufficient conditions for enduring self-organizing electronic institutions to manage sustainable common-pool resources.

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 7 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach @elfpavlik @jonrichter @lynnfoster I'm putting these here instead of in the OpenAppsJS Project discussion.
http://mikorizal.org/lynn_foster.json
http://mikorizal.org/bob_haugen.json

Minimal, I know, but are they valid?

And what's the diff between those and http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebID ?

JR

Jon Richter Tue 7 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen WebID is an authentication system based on in-browser client-certificates that is currently contested by the identity pattern developed by the Web Payments group.

Your client certificates' public key(s) get published on your URI so you can log-in anywhere your WebID is used for authentication. Also see Henry Story's XWiki WebID page for an example.

BH

Bob Haugen Tue 7 Oct 2014

@jonrichter - ok, so we got (a) the stuff I copied and pasted from what @tiborkatelbach posted, (b)WebID, and (c) the identity pattern developed by the Web Payments group (this? https://web-payments.org/specs/source/identity-credentials/ )

Any more contenders? And which should we choose, assuming we need to choose?

JR

Jon Richter Tue 7 Oct 2014

That's @elfpavlik's playground.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 7 Oct 2014

Thanks Bob for the home work.
Jon is right that we build our person json-ld map based on elf's profile , in order to share something existing that we agreed with instead of creating yet another profile endpoint. I'm working on the person editor at the moment based on these input fields.

ST

Simon Tegg Tue 7 Oct 2014

I missed the context for this but Mikey got this started https://github.com/enspiral/craftodex-data

M

Mikey Tue 7 Oct 2014

WebID and the Web Payments identity are both based on foaf:Person or schema.org:Person objects, so we're good.

EP

elf Pavlik Tue 7 Oct 2014

nice profiles++ :D
maybe some of those old-ish examples will come handy: https://github.com/ouisharelabs/plp-berlin-hacks

@tiborkatelbach what do you miss in https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-editor

we may hack on it for few more hours tomorrow (see issues and pull requests)

EP

elf Pavlik Tue 7 Oct 2014

@ahdinosaur why did you chose YAML? i also considered it when preparing plp-berlin-hacks repo but then went with CSON

M

Mikey Wed 8 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik, i like writing YAML more than writing JSON and didn't think of CSON. what are your thoughts on YAML vs CSON for JSON-LD objects like this?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Wed 8 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik I just need a form inside our application it's doing the same thing but has to correspond to our design specifications, and small application specifities , but the end point json-ld is the same

EP

elf Pavlik Wed 8 Oct 2014

http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/spec.html#id2759572

preferably I would like that we have tooling that allows everyone who wants to write such files by hand to freely choose JSON || CSON || YAML and it all gets send over wire as JSON-LD (once we need to scale better then also HDT http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2014/09/30/bringing-fast-triples-to-nodejs-with-hdt/ )

@ahdinosaur can you point me to code which converts your YAML to JSON?

M

Mikey Wed 8 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik: thanks for the links. yeah, i agree on the tooling goal. to answer your question, that code doesn't exist yet. now that i have some profile data dreamcode and profile vocab dreamcode, i'll give another go at writing code that uses the vocabs to intelligently SCRUD (search, create, read, update, delete) the data, starting with converting the data to wire formats like JSON and serving basic reads.

ST

Simon Tegg Wed 8 Oct 2014

I used the yaml-js module

JR

Jon Richter Wed 8 Oct 2014

Yo @bobhaugen I tried to load your JSON into our PLP deployment at http://profiles.allmende.io/ and found you would need to http://enable-cors.org/ on your webserver.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 8 Oct 2014

@jonrichter - how about this?
http://profiles.allmende.io/provider/8cff2c5f-5b0d-44e8-9d9d-f8f928d40308

(Re enabling cors, I don't think our JSON is correct yet. It was a noob stab at the homework assignment. Still studying how to format and deploy, don't like bob_haugen.json, doesn't seem to be how people do it.)

JR

Jon Richter Thu 16 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen Nice, isn't it? It seems we can propagate the PLP schema also to the Open Knowledge Foundation.

JR

Jon Richter Thu 16 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach How's it evolving on your side? We may have to cooperate soon to finish the event and places schemas. Assetts are also up next, according to @elfpavlik .

EP

elf Pavlik Thu 16 Oct 2014

@jonrichter Projects before Assets! but now on the road :D https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/522824802940100608

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 16 Oct 2014

@jonrichter @elfpavlik what do you think of this stuff that @ahdinosaur and @lynnfoster and I are working on?
We put a text version of our OVN vocab here:
https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/blob/master/docs/core_model.txt
and are working with Mikey to LOD it here:
https://github.com/openvocab/ovn

We'd like to get in sync if possible. But as Mikey says, it's a marathon not a sprint.

JR

Jon Richter Thu 16 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen I believe we will have to quietly work through your published pieces. Meanwhile I've submit a small PR.

:+1: for Marathon. sigh In MMM/TransforMap we always say the process is an elk/a moose ...

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 16 Oct 2014

@jonrichter - we use process pretty much the same way as IPOtables that @elfpavlik is working on. Takes inputs, gives outputs. Or think of it as a function.

But yeah, lotta overloaded words in these territories. Project is another. So is Asset.

JR

Jon Richter Fri 17 Oct 2014

I just want to make sure that we keep the term Project out of the disussion; at least as long as possible.

I refer "to these things" often quite practically to as Processes. As I like to think into spatiotemporal terms, coming from Physics. Newtonian's could even bring in Forces now, but that's another thing; quickly touching questions of hegemonial gouvernance.

Well, please everyone, have your daily update on Organized Networks. The one link from Ned Rossiter's Blog, together with Geert Lovink that I must have mentionned earlier. And you may also like my introductory paragraphs about it in the Public Space Invaders essay.
We have an obligation towards our littermates (Hans Jonas) that we get those hyper-structuralist (just-made-up) concepts out of our minds. sentence said.

In a cybernetic way, one could even prioritize Knowledge over Assett, arguing in a way that the collective intentionality of swarms (networks, multitudes / E. Thacker 2004) is only been built through the Extension of Mind through assets (> Philosophy of Mind, qualia, neuronal correlate disucssions) in action.

There is no Project at all, only probability functions in n-dimensional, topologic space. Have a look at TopoTime or Fluid Views, for example. The compartiments of the aggregates might be less complex in the end, than we thought.


Pardon me. Just revisiting some earlier thoughts continually.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@jonrichter - you're pardoned, barely. Only because of the Fluid Views reference...;-)

And yes please, keep Project out of the discussion.

But maybe repeat the urls for "Organized Networks. The one link from Ned Rossiter’s Blog, together with Geert Lovink that I must have mentionned earlier. And you may also like my introductory paragraphs about it in the Public Space Invaders essay"?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@jonrichter , we are really moving forward but since we're doing this a side project, because it's auto financed , we're not as efficient as we'de like to be.
but our roadmap has Person, Organization, next are Events, and Projects and Assets/Ressources could follow.
our first batch is in schema.org vocab, I'd also like to convert to Activtity Streams very soon
but in the mean time we could prepare the data structures for our assets endpoint, on buidingCommons

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen @ahdinosaur @lynnfoster, excellent work on the endpoints, we have to sort out our common usage , if we want to share our endpoints , it would be great to have a work session on these, I see a lot of similarities
especially for the interface approach , I'd love to show you the automated form generator based on Type definitions

@jonrichter fluid Views is really excellent do you have contact with Marian ? it could be a super integration into our data representations

EP

elf Pavlik Fri 17 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach I must admit that I find your use of term 'endpoint' bit confusing! so far i would say thatwe work on common schemas

endpoint i would suggest reserving for things like

@bobhaugen @ahdinosaur thanks for link to repositories, will try to check it out ASAP!

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik sure common schemas is good

M

Mikey Fri 17 Oct 2014

i have a question for you @elfpavlik, and anyone else who has experience with OWL/RDF-style Linked Open Data, regarding how to model @lynnfoster and @bobhaugen's model for value networks. they are using the type object pattern, reminiscent of smalltalk, which i really like. however, i'm starting to get the feeling that this is against the grain of how OWL/RDF is intended to be modeled. the popular way seems to be to make new subclasses for all the things. instead of just Process and ProcessType, we would have something like Process, TranslationProcess, 3DPrintingProcess, etc.

what do you think? if we should do subclassing, i'm gonna try and learn more about how vocabs are defined and rethink how i do my schemas, so they can describe vocabs instead of contexts, which honestly might be better given the power that could be unlocked with software that provides an easy way to define entirely new vocabs (even if most are sameAs or equivalentClass) and also intimately understands vocabs instead of just contexts (like being able to understand the defined similarities between foaf:Person and schema.org:Person).

PM

Paul Mackay Fri 17 Oct 2014

Is creating lots of subclasses that beneficial? I like the pragmatic approach by Popolo spec, e.g. see note about org types here: http://popoloproject.com/specs/organization.html:

"In general, subclasses should only be used if the benefits outweigh the complexity. It is of no use to create the classes Partnership, LimitedCompany, UnlimitedCompany, etc. if all these classes behave the same way in your use case. It is simpler to use the classification property in that case."

M

Mikey Fri 17 Oct 2014

thanks @paulmackay1, that's a great example of the type object pattern in the wild. i feel better now, haha. :)

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@paulmackay1 Excellent doc on popolo , it's exactly in the the openApp & building common startegy and very close to Human PIxel as well , it would be a pleasure to see how we can converge our energies ?

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

Some advantages of type objects can be seen in Sensorica. Here are their ResourceTypes. Want to create a subclass for each of them?
http://nrp.sensorica.co/accounting/resources/

Or here's the Driftless Herbal Exchange Network:
http://dhen.webfactional.com/accounting/resources/
They're just getting started, they'll have more.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@jonrichter @elfpavlik minor correction on our use of process vs IPOtables: what IPOtables calls Process, we call ProcessType. IPOtables is actually creating type objects.
Here's how type objects fit into economic networks:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxlqOeaPnXHfN0RMemRPMWpDdlk/view?usp=sharing

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach - we have Activity Streams on our roadmap, too. Please ping us when you get there, and we will do the same.

EP

elf Pavlik Fri 17 Oct 2014

@ahdinosaur yesterday while hitchhiking i got chance to read ~40% of http://workingontologist.org/

i find it very nicely explaining things, in the middle of RDFS chapter now which explains some nice patterns with using rdfs:subClassOf, rdfs:subPropertyOf, rdfs:domain, rdfs:range and how inference works there!

@paulmackay1 I need to take some time go learn more about poplo! BTW how about doing in next days call around Code for All API? @tiborkatelbach it also has projects! http://codeforamerica.org/api/#api-projects and I played with JSON-LD macro for it https://github.com/elf-pavlik/cfapi-browser/blob/master/app.js#L6

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen I don't know if you saw this tool
qa.pixelhumain.com/ph/tools/vie
to write schema.org schemas
but I'm planning on adapting it for AS very soon to make it easy to generate forms automatically for creating semantically structured data
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHL-RoHdoNo

I need to pull it out as a standalone project actualy
but the first alpha POC is here to play with :)

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

What do people mean by Project? For Sensorica, it is a combination of an organization (project team) and a product line: long-life, no definite end, e.g. we are working on drones. For some people, it is more like a process: defined deliverables/goals, expected end date. For others, somewhere in the middle.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik , we have to find a way to commonise our efforts
This week end would be great for a call , I'm on travel after that

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach - thanks, I had not seen that tool. Unfortunately, looks like we will be referencing a lot more vocabs than schema.org. In general, at least so far, where schema.org and goodrelations define the same concept, I like goodrelations better. Could the same tool work for different vocabs?

EP

elf Pavlik Fri 17 Oct 2014

LF

Lynn Foster Fri 17 Oct 2014

@paulmackay1 Agree on subclasses vs types. Of course there is always a gray area, and it tends to be a bit of an art, but here are a couple possible criteria:

I think subclasses should be used where there are clearly different properties and behavior, and the classes are universally used. For example, Person and Organization are useful as subclasses.

On the other hand, if the types can/should be user defined, you would not want to use subclasses. For example you wouldn't want TranslationProcessType or 3DPrintingProcessType, per the @ahdinosaur example. If you want users to define their types and there is behavior involved, you can put that at a level above the type level, and the user can choose the type-type, so to speak. :)

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

A copy of original TypeObject pattern:
http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/dpa/typeobject.pdf

See advantages and disadvantages.

Citation info for original:
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=273453

LF

Lynn Foster Fri 17 Oct 2014

Agree with @tiborkatelbach on meeting to figure out how to better organize our efforts here.

I wonder if we should have separate sub-groups and/or separate loomio discussions for each piece of the schema? Like Agent (Person/Org), Project, OVN operations (big but needs to be cohesive), etc. Subgroups could present back for further comment.

Other thoughts?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen

it's the objective to integrate Activity Streams next
and prepare a common and generic process and format to make it easy
to travel inside lov.okfn.org
to write schemas
to generate the corresponding form dynamically

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

@elfpavlik code for all Civic Tech is really clsoe as well
we really have to converge , there's to many similarity to all be doing the same thing :)

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@tiborkatelbach - here's where we are going with Activity Streams. Might need to be an extension:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JEPsxJOjEMHNhvIGLXzcvovrpXqpoY75YaPHDKI0t9w/edit#slide=id.g368effe15_0192

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

Re convergence: how many of us are trying to do the same thing, or part of the same thing, or intersecting things?

What values do we share?

How many of us would have the same ideas about e.g. Project, Asset, Process, etc.?

Which of these territories is most ripe for convergence? I'm guessing Agent(Person, Organization). What next?

I'm not expecting detailed answers to all of those questions now. They are just factors in how to organize a practical convergence.

PM

Paul Mackay Fri 17 Oct 2014

Why not create a doc a bit like https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oSq4L6rvgQlcZDLgdalzyBnFpU41RxPEjh2HlU_s3Io/edit#gid=0 ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oSq4L6rvgQlcZDLgdalzyBnFpU41RxPEjh2HlU_s3Io/edit#gid=0 ) and list the object types in 1st column, then properties in the next column? Add suitable descriptions. Could that be a useful way to iterate on what the different views are on objects, attributes and their meanings?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 17 Oct 2014

That's excelent Paul
does popolo have an interface for creating all these structures ?

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

Maybe add a column for each different definition of the same concept?

Or "same as" or "similar to"?

PM

Paul Mackay Fri 17 Oct 2014

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "an interface for creating"?

Perhaps it would be worth starting a separate doc where you could add more columns? That CfAPI doc is specifically for the evolution of that API, whereas here there seems to be several projects and a need to at least see where the harmonisation or differences are?

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@paulmackay1 - I assumed you meant, start a new doc based on that idea.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

Question for the LOD savvy: what is (or what are) the viewpoint(s) of LOD? Individual agent or independent? Or both or either, depending on situation?

I am scratching my head.

For example, from the viewpoint of a buyer, it's a purchase order. From the viewpoint of a seller, it's a customer order. From the independent view, it's an order.

Or, the independent view of a hierarchical relationship is that it's a hierarchical relationship, or more broadly, a hierarchy. From the viewpoint of a superior, it's "my subordinates". From the viewpoint of a subordinate, it's "my superior".

From the viewpoint of an organization, it's "my members". From the viewpoint of a member, it's "my organization". From the independent view, it's probably memberships. Or more broadly, an organization.

@ahdinosaur - in https://github.com/openvocab/ovn/blob/master/vocab/Agent.js you put the collection of relationships with the Agent. So, since those relationships are binary, the other Agent in each case would have a similar relationship? How or when would the independent view (overview of relationships in a network, for example) come into LOD? E.g.
http://tip.webfactional.com/accounting/radial-graph/5/

M

Mikey Fri 17 Oct 2014

@bobhaugen i was thinking each Agent would reference the same relationship. the relationship has a direction with the isRelated / hasRelated properties. so for a membership between a person and a group, they each reference the same relationship, where isRelated points to the person who is a member and hasRelated points to the group who has a member.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 17 Oct 2014

@ahdinosaur - yeah, it's clearly the same relationship from an independent view. Like it is the same order.

In LOD, does the relationship itself have an independent URI? (You can tell I am still a noob...) And if it does have its own URI, what domain?

[edited] Mikey proposes what I think is a pretty good solution: each end of a reciprocal relationship lives in that end's domain and has a link to the other end. https://github.com/openvocab/ovn/issues/3

TK

Tibor Katelbach Sat 18 Oct 2014

@paulmackay1 sorry, I meant front ends , designed and integrated form interfaces

LF

Lynn Foster Wed 12 Nov 2014

@elfpavlik @tiborkatelbach @bobhaugen @ahdinosaur @paulmackay1 @carolinesmalley and anyone else I missed:

A number of us were feeling the need to coordinate the LOD efforts, which necessarily involve the open vocab efforts too. We had a couple online meetings, then things have dropped off.

I'd like to suggest we get going again, and make sure the various efforts are coordinated. At the last meeting, someone (Elf?) suggested we create 2 tracks, one for the technical discussions and one more for the basis of unity for the work and more theoretical aspects. I'm proposing starting up the technical track.

The agenda item I am interested in is defining how we will coordinate our efforts in each of the various areas of LOD definition. Sub-groups meeting? Online docs? Etc.?

If you are interested, you could respond here, add to the agenda if you like, and I will set up a doodle so we can figure out a time.

M

Mikey Wed 12 Nov 2014

@lynnfoster count me in for the LOD technical track. :)

TK

Tibor Katelbach Thu 13 Nov 2014

Hi Lynn and all I've just been swamped with work at the moment
wishing things will calm down to try and organize a new building commons meetup
don't worry I'm reading all the messages and still in the same mojo
cheers

2014-11-13 1:35 GMT+04:00 Mikey Williams (Loomio) :

@lynnfoster count me in for the LOD technical track. :)

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Caroline Smalley Fri 14 Nov 2014

Ditto on @ahdinosaur ! Eric (programmer) will do what he can to be there as well. Trusting the timing and thanks @lynnfoster for bringing it up.