Loomio

[post] Can we find a consensus on some Covid 19-related issues?

LM
Lander Meeusen Public Seen by 32

Recently, we received more urgent questions about our stance in the debate(s). The manifestation in Brussels, which seems to have a huge polarizing effect in the population also pushes us to reflect on the crisis publicly.

I'm wondering if we can come up with a, minimal, joint stance on some topics. I've prepared a document here with a simple, preliminary structure. Feel free to go at it...

https://pad.parley.be/p/standpunt_corona

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Wed 24 Nov

Great text to start. 'lift the anchors? '

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 24 Nov

Thank you @Lander Meeusen for this necessary (and scary ? ) proposition.

Before I dig into the content, I just remind there is an existing draft from 1 year ago about coronavirus crisis. It was never finished, but it can be reused for some parts if relevant. https://www.loomio.org/d/3b5lmUz7/-post-pirate-comment-on-the-coronavirus-crisis

And to help with this current proposition, I might suggest that we do this exercise firstly as a policy issue, something internal and not aimed at external communication. So we should focus exclusively on the content now, and forget about "finding the correct sentence" or "finding the good length for the article". First we search the consensus, then if we reach that consensus, we can extract content from it to write one or more articles? If that's okay with you @Lander Meeusen , I'll move this topic in the general forum (not the website subforum).

LM

Lander Meeusen Wed 24 Nov

@Renaud Van Eeckhout Completely, agree. First, see if we can find a consensus (= god exercise in consensus building), then see if we publish something. I remembered the draft from a year a good, but couldn't find it immediately. It could definitely be informative to see how things evolved since then.

I'm ok to move this to the general forum. Can you take care of that?

LM

Lander Meeusen Mon 29 Nov

@Renaud Van Eeckhout @Jan Van Opstal It seems there's no more contributions. There's a nice collection of statements. I think Renaud and myself contributed, David gave me a line to add. Anyone else?

What are the next steps?

-Making sure: every pirate is a ware of this initiative and able to contribute

-Close reading of the paragraphs, discuss it together (jitsi meet, here on loomio: what's the best form?)

-See if there are veto's, additions, corrections, ...?

-Last vote? (For instance through a form: read the paragraph, click on "agree" / or "don't agree" > why?)

-adopt as a consensus (until further notice)

...?

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Tue 30 Nov

We can make it even more simple: we can assume that, once we have 3 pirates agreeing on one statement, and nobody expresses a strong objection on that statement, then after a reasonable time we can assume there is consensus on that statement (repeat for each statement, maybe all at once if there is already a clear agreement on all of them).

But in all cases, I think it would be nice to have an online meeting, it's probably easier to find agreements on many different statements and to adjust the decision-making process. So I'm in for the jitsi meeting (Austrian Pirates have their own jitsi instance that we could use : https://meet.piratenpartei.at/ )

LM

Lander Meeusen Wed 1 Dec

I agree in principle, but in order for a pirate to agree or protest they need to be aware of the process. My question how we can be sure people have had the chance to agree or object. For Antwerp, I'll simply share it in our chat. Here on Loomio is also public. Is there a mailing list?

I guess that raises the question: who is a pirate? I don't think we have member lists.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 1 Dec

Yes, it raises some questions that hopefully we'll be able to answer someday otherwise they'll haunt us every time:

-who is a pirate? no member list indeed/no definition

-what is the newsletter for? I checked on the website and it's presented as (basically) "to be informed monthly". Except some big things (elections and GA), I think we only send already published articles via the newsletter + future events from our wiki calendar

-how and where do pirates contribute/decide? on the website we clearly say it's on Loomio that things are discussed

with that very basic information, I would assume it's already good enough that this covid debate is done only on Loomio (there are 80 people notified, that's a lot of pirates already). And see the publication of an article and the sending of a newsletter as the reward for the work done :D I'm worried being too demanding, especially when we're so few active pirates, is going to make the workload huge for no great benefit, and we can't answer at once all the questions. In non-covid times, I'd find reasonable to have also some physical meeting to be more accessible, but it might not be reasonable now.

JD

Jelle Debusscher Wed 1 Dec

Hi everybody,

Thank you for the discussion.

just in case FB went down I set up a Discord server here.
https://discord.gg/VTtWTC3J5P

Please be welcome.
You're welcome to participate whenever you want.
Normally we have meetings on wednesday evenings so that could also happen there.
Jitsi is fine but struggled with more participants in my experience.
Discord can form a bridge between the formal and the informal with lots of community-options.

Have a great evening and maybe see you later on tonight.
Jelle

Op wo 1 dec. 2021 om 17:45 schreef Renaud Van Eeckhout (via Loomio) :

LM

Lander Meeusen Wed 1 Dec

Good point(s). Let's give it another week. Then arrange one or 2 video-meeting at different moments (weekday / weekend). (@Jelle Debusscher can you do group video chat on Discord?) And take it from there.

JD

Jelle Debusscher Wed 8 Dec

Yes. Installed a PPBE server here: https://discord.gg/CJ2t3cuNry

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 8 Dec

For privacy reasons, I wouldn't use Discord, it's collecting our personal data and sharing it with their business partners without our consent. It's also pretending in their Privacy Policy that it complies with the EU-U.S. Privacy Shield Framework, except... this Privacy Shield has been invalidated by the Court of Justice of the EU more than a year ago, on the grounds that the US does not provide adequate protection for EU citizens. It's also a proprietary software.

As I said above, there is a Pirate (Austrian) Jitsi instance for video-conferencing. If you don't trust these Pirates, there is also the Jitsi instance of Belnet which has been used by many schools during this pandemic. And PPBe has its own audio-conferencing tool, self-hosted, free software, obviously not privacy invasive, and worked everytime I used it : https://talk.parley.be/

So, two questions to be asked :

  • is it really a good idea to associate PPBe with Discord? (I don't think so)

  • is it really a good idea to make it mandatory for Pirates to give up their privacy rights just to be able to participate in a PPBe meeting, especially when functioning solutions already exist? (I don't think so)

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Wed 1 Dec

Do we have a consensus on... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2021-004802_EN.html and the fact that in different states ( Belgium incl) vaccination is getting mandatory?

LM

Lander Meeusen Thu 2 Dec

Op het einde van de tekst in de pad vind je een voorstel voor een standpunt van de piraten.