Loomio
March 15th, 2019 19:04

NZ Shootings

Mason Bee
Mason Bee Public Seen by 221

Although I don't want to try and promote Internet Part NZ using the shootings in Christchurch I believe we should discuss the ways these shootings will be used by politicians and the media arm of the GCSB to promote their political objectives. Already there are questions as to why the perpetrators were not on watch lists. What do you think the political angles will be and how they will be used by various ideologies?

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 15th, 2019 19:09

To step up surveillance might be one outcome.Gun control seems to be another. I would imagine greater sharing of intelligence between NZ and Australia will be another. I notice the GCSB has largely been silent thus far but will obviously come out with some sort of posture in the coming days.

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 15th, 2019 22:12

"I can tell you right now our gun laws will change." Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern

Daymond Goulder-Horobin

Daymond Goulder-Horobin March 15th, 2019 23:10

I believe the Internet Party should take the route of thinking outside the box. Here are a couple Ideas I have.

  1. Fingerprint Guns, a bit facist some might say but if the owners have control over there own tech then it may prevent black markets.
    https://smarttechfoundation.org/smart-firearms-technology/fingerprint-guns/

  2. Invest and subsidize development of Non-lethal firearms, in particular it would be good if firms and business had emergency defensive tools at there disposal. What makes firearms risky is they can kill accidentally if the intention is to subdue so preferably I would like something like this.

  3. I am opposed to more gun control as I am untrusting of the current state, even if the Internet Party became the state, I would want the citizens to be able to defend themselves anyway. At the most, Perhaps analysis of Japans gun laws are due since they are the most comprehensive, yet ensure those trustworthy have the right to protect themselves.
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php

To answer the question, the left wing parties will advocate for more gun control to prevent guns going out, the right wing parties will argue for less gun control so people can defend themselves, plain and simple with no critical thinking involved. Also its possible that the big parties may argue for more surveillance and control in response to this shooting.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 17th, 2019 00:14

Re this shooting; the story has been continuously changing so not sure of the facts but have some questions.
How would law changes have affected this tragedy?
Is there some argument that the victims should or could have been armed to defend themselves?
Is there some argument that we should arm to protect ourselves against our own Govt?
(Just trying to eliminate the spurious arguments)

I’m a long time shooter and I argue that there is a place for legit firearm use but self defence isn’t one of them in the society that I want to live in.
Guns, knives, explosives, poisons & money are tools… and just like cars, can kill by accident or when used with malice. I’m saying that it is not the tool but rather the society that provided the motivation.

There are many types of owners but the ones who are attracted to the power as an extension of their will are the ones that scare me most (Guns are a tool). Don’t fear the gun, fear a particular type of person and realize they don’t always use a gun or even do the deed themselves…

The politics
https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/new-zealands-true-rate-of-firearm-homicide/

Link shows that statistics are manipulated for control agendas.
(Side note) Worst crime time-line matches with Govt changing labour, retirement & ACC laws
Other stories on this site have arms office making up its own laws. (I have experienced that one to be true.)

Is there any question that the media push the conflicts and manipulate large segments of our society?
When I look at the motivations I see money and power plays manipulating bigotries as the cause.

My heart goes out to all the families that this crime has hurt.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 17th, 2019 03:50

A second set of ideas.
“Gun fingerprint” usually means firing a projectile and recording the subtle marks left on it and on the case.
Its not a 100% but post crime it may help so long as nothing is changed on the gun. …But that’s too late, isn't it?
Doesn’t work on sabot rounds either.

The fingerprint addon to guns are a new tech and mostly for pistols, custom to a particular model or shape weapon. Still unreliable. …can be hacked, smashed, removed. Also; don’t always work, remaining locked or unlocked if battery flat or timed out or miss positioned finger.
They can affect the trigger pull, which is important if you are wanting to hit something.
They cause the grip to be too large for small hands which is a safety thing…
Note that there are variations that wont work when a certain cell signal is present thus making safe areas.

In that same vane, there are mechanical trigger and chamber locks, lockable covers & transport cases.
There’s quite a lot of competition in the industry. Really its not the area we should worry over.

Here’s where it gets bent… With off the shelf materials; myself and most engineers, can build a shotgun in an evening. With a piece of old barrel & my trusty 3D printer I can make a machine pistol in a couple of days.
(I wouldn’t of course) But the point is ‘how do you make laws when this is the new reality?’

It seems to break down to “knowledge & intent”.
There will always be people with the knowledge. Sure we should keep it… shall we say “limited or restricted”?
INTENT: Society is just as responsible for causing intent as the individual.
When benign we call it socialization and when malevolent we call it radicalization.
Either way, its a programming that comes from other members of society.
So: If you wind someone up, poke them, stir them, falsify info etc…And they act
How much responsibility do you want to take?
I ask this because its not part of the normal debate on firearm safety but regularly seems behind the motivation of the attacks.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 19th, 2019 08:34

OK you’ve read my other posts…
By Jacinda's argument; police should be armed with flintlocks.
How many times do you have to shoot a suspect?

If Jacinda changes the law… and she has the power to do it.
First problem is that the police don’t have a clue about who owns what.
Remember: Govt and police made that law this way. They threw out the tracking of each firearm. Giving them more power to snoop and control.. and strangely made them more MONEY.

The irony is that the easiest place to get a military assault weapon and armour “is a police car”!
You can’t steal them if you don’t have a licence….yeh right!
So is she going to send people with military assault guns, body armour & helmets to the doors of everybody with a gun licence: Question; do you have a semi auto gun; Answer NO!
If people die as a result of the forced taking of property, then I argue that it would be SHE who is responsible. It is still legal to shoot an armed robber isn’t it? (The law changes so often)

The stats for the periods of highest crime, just happen to match the time line of law changes and govt law abuses and extra taxes (Go figure).
Talk deaths on road or deaths by medical misadventure or deaths each day by govt. directed drone strikes.
Each of those statistics mock their justifications for greater POWER by law change or honesty by govt.
You get that; 160,000 people die every day?
Perspective verses propaganda programming…Which will win?

GA

Geoff Anderson March 19th, 2019 23:44

GA

Geoff Anderson March 20th, 2019 10:39

Daymond
Re your poll “ should the MSSA class weapons be banned”-
Choice: Act 1st discuss later or NO!
My argument follows, that this type of shooting was a mental act and the re-action is as crazy.

Firstly a poll when emotions are so high is a bit rude..
I would suggest a person with a fear of guns is twice as fearful at this time.
A small statistical blip in the cause of death statistics but a huge bump in the emotional stakes.
How much is influenced by biased information from the media?

Fear of the unknown is important in interpreting the result of such a poll. (you already started it)

I know it sounds like I have an axe to grind…But.
If you also ask... Have you fired over 1000 rounds? …over 500?
I’ll bet you $500 that a pattern appears in the stats…

Those with little experience will try to control those with …

GA

Geoff Anderson March 21st, 2019 00:19

DAY 6 after the shootings and many of Bee’s warnings have come to pass.
Those that practice the philosophy of “never let a good crisis go to waste” had started before the blood was dry.
Establishment has arrested people for having copies of the video proof of the crime.
“Proof” that has already debunked several official narratives spread by NZ media and police…
Particularly important considering his trial hasn’t started…. (Kim had a similar problem)
Websites both inside and outside the country have been censored and blocked to NZ residents.

'Crazy number' prison sentence and fines have been bandied around as if they were fact.

Draconian gun laws (or the proposal of) have been pushed and drama’ed by most media channels.
Shooters have been demonized with stereotype slurs. TV programs have been taken off air.

[EDIT to correct grievous error] I had stated [here] that the MSD had sent out a virtue signal letter that sowed discord. The statement was FALSE. I had listened to bad information and not checked. It was in fact a good letter that I should have supported. I’ll try not to make the same mistake again. (Too narrow a view)

Society was hurt by the shooting but society is being destroyed by these virtue attacks on law & civil rights.
These virtue attacks are crossing the line and are breaking our laws and are affecting our civil rights and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 21st, 2019 12:48

I would like to know just what we use them for. If they are used for a purpose (eg; shooting pests without having to reload) then they have a legitimate purpose. An extra licensing procedure in this case would be the legitimate response. I think what we have here is another case of technology allowing individuals far greater power than they had before. If you compare the shootings to 911 (and adjust for population) then we just had an event on the scale of 911, but it only took one person instead of 19.

I imagine what happened with the PM is that she saw a chance to gain power on the international stage in exactly the same way that 911 was used for the invasion of Iraq.

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 21st, 2019 12:58

In other thoughts along these lines I would suggest everybody watches what our government does while Brexit is blanketing the news in a week or so.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 21st, 2019 23:14

So the law is changed? Without being worked out?
Without going through 1st 2nd & 3rd readings, without providing any room for dissent.
Democracy or dictatorship?
And in a few days everyone who hasn’t complied with this midnight law change will be a criminal?
“Buy back” seems an after thought, with no details provided.
Will those that have already handed in, get a refund?
Will the paid up licence owners get a refund for their licence and ACC fees and special storage equipment that they had been legally required to buy?? Will dept of Social development give them a handout for hurt feelings?

What happens if some owners take the Kiwi Farms attitude to the NZ Police? I kind of joked about in an earlier post but now I pose the question in earnest.
Will force be used? Emotional control freaks don’t like it when someone says no, so this could easily escalate.

Daymond Goulder-Horobin

Daymond Goulder-Horobin March 22nd, 2019 05:28

It is important that the membership form a clear cohesive discussion on Gun Control.

One thing I will note is the IP social media following comprises mostly of people favoring the MSSA ban and in particular even favoring the speed at which it was done. I have posted on Facebook roughly every 2-3 days over the past month and it seems to be that way.

So if the IP is going to argue for discussion and debate on alternatives before continuing the ban it needs the active members behind it. Although it may not matter during the 2020 campaign, instead then it would be arguing further measures.

Daymond Goulder-Horobin

Daymond Goulder-Horobin March 22nd, 2019 05:36

Yes, it should have been discussed and thought out further. I reckon if the person was legally required to buy the gun they should be compensated.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 22nd, 2019 08:48

Prediction:
When we feel attacked we can submit, defend, attack back or side step; I suspect there’s a lot of digging going on around the country today.
While weapons are currently 99% in the hands of law abiding citizens by the time they resurface, there will be no legitimate places to shoot them, so will pass exclusively into the hands of criminals.
(Its a logic that I don’t want to be true)

GA

Geoff Anderson March 22nd, 2019 09:22

I hate politics but this is something I’m fairly passionate about. (Incase you hadn’t guessed)
Almost every one of those MSSA owners would give their lives to protect New Zealand against enemies foreign or domestic. Part of a common mind set among them. They see themselves as protectors…
Do you see the irony?

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 22nd, 2019 16:49

Yes. It would be rather blowback-ish if controlling firearms set up situations where people were shot. There are quite a few people in the country who don't like the Police but who live legal lives. Hell, there are quite a few Police in the country who don't like people who live legal lives. Sending in the ADS to recover a suspected firearm might cause more damage than it stops.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 25th, 2019 01:36

Covering the censorship part of the argument
Primary source © Reuters / Jorge Silva re-presented by RT (4 quotes from article + my comments & rant)

Jacinda Ardern’s “global call” to fight the “ideology” of racism. Ardern pledged “to weed it out where it exists and make sure that we never create an environment where it can flourish.”

Following the classification, anyone caught with the (Manifesto) document on their computer could face between 10 and 14 years in prison. (WTF! more than raping or stabbing someone)

counterterrorism expert Jennifer Breedon told RT that banning such videos does nothing to prevent future attacks. “We need to stop putting band-aids on gunshot wounds,” she said. “We’re spending so much time talking about ‘we can’t have videos like this’...rather than answering questions that need to be asked.”

” Stephen Franks, a constitutional lawyer and spokesman for the Free Speech Coalition, told AP. “The damage and risks are greater from suppressing these things than they are from trusting people to form their own conclusions and to see evil or madness for what it is.”

So my questions start: Was the firearms law change done legally? The I’s dotted the t’s crossed?
Was it based on statistical logic or emotional threat logic. (Not a question)
Is the censoring and blocking of websites and free communication, and attacking of alternative views with threats of extended incarceration and huge fines, not a greater influence on your lives?
The justice warrior thought police are actually making New Zealanders into criminals because they know best.
Such well thought out policies.. Force of will & virtuous aggressive action…

Other related ideas:
Armed unrest and wars don’t just happen, they are organized and funded just like other business’s.
The businesses usually operate under the guise of national defense and ‘influence group think’ as a tool.
Paranoia and fear of our fellow man attacking us, is pushed upon us from every direction.
Like no one noticed ;)
We are programmed with the belief that with a gun we are safe and without we are the victim.
Its an image of power & force of will and aggression.

The real players have executive immunity and write the laws & use the laws and break the laws.

It is my humble opinion that if you want to stop this cycle it must start at the top.
If the spying can’t identify the people who organize & fund these criminal acts then what good did it do?
You don’t have to be a conspiracy nut to see these crimes going on everyday around the world.
Who arms and funds and trains the terrorists?
Who thinks that propaganda against the people by ‘the representatives of the people’ is acceptable?
Fake news by media monopolies and from Govt funded (tax money) think tanks is behind most of the worlds problems. Executive immunity when uncovered is in every-bodies faces.
Do you think that has no effect on society’s collective paranoia and crime stats?

I guess my point is that “popular decisions” should not ever trump law and proper procedure.
Democracy requires that descenting voices have their say.
The elimination of descent by the the speed of action and the censored blocking of websites by ISPs and other associated stories have my questioning how you ‘trust’ in the face of abusive power even if it is “popular”?

GA

Geoff Anderson March 25th, 2019 03:29

Bee; you’ll get a dozen different answers from a dozen different people as to why semi-autos are sometimes a better tool.
The basic answer is: Military weapons are modern designs and after a shooter has experienced a tamed one, they really don’t want to go back and use something designed when Adam was a cowboy.

Would you ride a wooden wheeled push bike when a modern bike is available?
Many of the features that are desirable for military & terrorist use, also apply to civilian use.
We also want something that is compact, light, corrosion & dirt resistant; but its not just about the gun part.
Sights and night vision and all sorts of boy toy accessories like suppressors, also scare the H out of people.
Suppressors are actually a health & safety, gentleman's accessory that stop you going deaf from the especially noisy short barrels.
They considerably add to the safety & fun of firing all firearms.
Most of these modern accessories, really do assist in getting the projectile to the intended target.

People shoot for different reasons. Like fishing, it is not always about ‘catching the fish’.
[There is commercial]… but most shooters do it for fun or just as ‘a time to walk in open spaces and think their own thoughts’…
I personally have always been drawn to the beauty of some of the mechanisms. I acquired a french pinfire ladies revolver when I was about 14yr. Engraved scenes with inlays of exotic metals & other materials, made with an intricacy and accuracy of a watch. Same detailed art can be found in old swords and knives.
You see the same attention to detail in church’s and temples.
I’m not sure the prohibitionists really understand they are messing with a type of emotion.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 27th, 2019 23:37

So these are the pages where political policy is incubated(?) from listening to thought out ideas & questions & alternative expressions & possible future paths? (Its not Twitter or Facebook)

Democracy has protocols, which means dissenting voices at least get heard.
Dictatorship does not observe protocols and censors dissent… using ever more powerful tools ...
So what just happened?
Check, tick check… Yep and people are cheering it on…
Are the ‘thinker and policy makers’ of the internet party also ‘cheering it on’?
Why am I, the only one bringing this up? I mean; am I wrong about something?
Was this not, a massive attack against democracy,, privacy & freedom?

Both the cause and solution…seems… obvious. (?)
You psych test all public servants to see if they are worthy to hold the position of trust.
It would get rid of all the wars and corruption. Everything else would follow…
I believe that it is ‘that simple’. [The best ideas are always simple]
I fade away singing “I dream a dream…”

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 29th, 2019 13:20

A little late, a little brief.

In regards to Jacinda Adern's call, I think perhaps she should look a little closer to home (eg; our government).

In regards to the classification, the prison terms are insane and hiding the manifesto (by what I have heard of it) is hiding the illness in this guys head. Is it really so dangerous to read an idea?

I have no idea if the firearms law was changed legally. I do remember the government was under fire in the current act for breaching the law by making licencing authorities to far away (I think).

The censoring and blocking of websites and free communication, and attacking of alternative views with threats of extended incarceration and huge fines could be considered having a greater effect on peoples lives depending on what ranking you give your morals. For instance killing people is bad but OK to keep your freedom.

I don't think it is the justice warriors. They are just being used for someone elses agenda.

In regards to the other ideas, this was as far as I am aware a single person. Not a business. As for fear, it is a great motivator. Fear of the other appears to be built into us. I don't believe I would be safer with a gun. I mean, what am I supposed to do? Carry it around loaded and ready in case of attack?

The real players do have executive immunity and write the laws & use the laws and break the laws....and then rewrite them to shelter themselves.

It would be nice to see change at the top but with consideration to the security services it will probably be used in an effort to gain more power, not lose power. It does look like democracy will lose out to populism.

The censoring of the Internet was very interesting as it seemed to be the government doing it and then the providers came out saying they did it as their community had requested it. We don't appear to have a free and fair Internet that is protected by law. Perhaps it is a job for Internet Party NZ?

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 29th, 2019 13:32

In some ways they are supposed to be the pages where policy is incubated but as there is no Policy Committee (as far as I am aware) it appears anything said here will incubate for a long time.

Internet Party NZ is hamstrung by a number of problems in my view. The lack of New Zealand members (20?), the current executive, a focus on Julian Assange over New Zealand, disregarding the Party Constitution, etc....All these add up to nothing happening. Look at the amount of threads on Loomio since the last election, the amount of emails sent out by the exec, etc...basically it is dead in the water at the moment and under the current executive this situation will probably continue.

So no, you aren't the only person bring it up. The other people just don't where or how to bring it up.

Mason Bee

Mason Bee March 29th, 2019 13:37

To make things worse, it looks like Loomio is now dead as when I try an create a new thread it says,
Sorry! Your subscription is not active.

Please upgrade to continue using Loomio.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 30th, 2019 02:37

Confess: I didn’t really think I was the only one to notice; it was a stir to try to get others to put forward a view, any view. I was … lonely posting… ; )
Even though the site / party are semi static, these pages and ideas and views can still help those that follow.

I’m a bit of a dreamer and think that the internet party has ‘so much potential’. (Its also about timing)
I see the world changing. Mass communication is potentially a revolution tool.
The war for hearts minds BELIEFS is already full on.
I ‘see / feel’ ways, where the I.P. could be leading the way in such a revolution; but it has to stand for something ‘like democracy / privacy, personal responsibility etc.’ (Big and LOUD)

It could never lead if it was wishy washy, or if decisions are made for political expediency or acted anything like a normal party...

2: question of individual or business.
He didn’t initiate all his own ideas…
A Christian child didn’t spontaneously imagine up Christianity, nor did a Muslim child conceive Islam.
These and other beliefs are brought to them by interest groups within society.
They provide subtle backing and training and an echo chamber.

Lets be real here; the term fake news: When you look…its not the small players that are causing the unrest or telling the big porkers, It is the big players and govts behind it. (Often Taxpayer money)
So yes he was a mental individual, that had been programmed by… (Maybe?)
With censorship, we cannot know either way.
The value of any official statement, becomes one of “FAITH”???
This isn’t the place for conspiracy theories, but I have so many questions about this crime that affected so many peoples lives. We all do, don’t we? So censorship?
I don’t like the answer “its better not to know” or “we’ll lock you up if you have information we don’t like”.
The world can only get better with better government.

GA

Geoff Anderson March 30th, 2019 02:45

OK Daymond; thought long and hard on this one.
Picture attached (See picture to make sense)
The picture lays out the basics of this ecco-friendly ‘crowd control vehicle’.
Fully bio-degradable and comes in a friendly non partisan green.
Obviously I’ll need a lot of money and time to refine it…
Lots of tests to perform, experiments, surveys and committees… could take years.
I’m keen to get started… Ready to do my part toward a more friendly world.

…If you think that non lethal weaponry is like the stun setting on a star trek phasor…
Then you have it wrong.
Its about bending a person or persons, to your will; using physical force, pain and intimidation.
There are defensive applications but 99% of the time they are used for aggressive purposes.
…To stifle opposition without having to resort to logic, words, communication…