Loomio
Wed 8 May 2019 4:32PM

[itsquad] Loomio group plan update

H HgO Public Seen by 35

We received this very long mail to inform us that Loomio is changing business model : if we want to keep using their service, we will have to PAY :money_mouth:

In short, if we choose Option 1, we will have to pay at least 22€ / month, or 220€/year (because there is a discount of 50%, we need to take action before 29th May).

Of course, they forgot to mention Option 5 : install your own Loomio server. Although I don't know how much it is easy to install / maintain.

PS : I didn't copy/paste the links, because well… there were A LOT of links :sweat_smile:

> Hi,
>
> I am reaching out to you today to let you know about upcoming changes to Loomio. Please read this e-mail in full as it contains important information that may affect how you use this service.
>
> ## Loomio 2.0
>
> Many of you told us that you would like a mobile app version of Loomio, and we listened. We are currently working on a mobile-first Loomio experience and can’t wait to share more about this and other new features with you!

>
> ## Changes to subscription plans
>
> Since launching in 2012, we have helped more than 100,000 groups collaborate, engage with members and reach decisions together. We feel honoured to have walked alongside many of you on this journey.

>
> Our goal is to continue providing you with an excellent service, while also developing the Loomio platform so it can work better for you. Our vision is to help organisations like yours work better collectively, now and into the future.
>
> As you can imagine, there are real costs to hosting, supporting and developing Loomio software. So that we can continue development and support for Loomio, we have implemented new pricing plans at loomio.org/pricing.
>
> As a social enterprise and worker cooperative – paid subscriptions are our lifeblood and help us sponsor unfunded community groups.
>
> ## What this means for you
>
> Your group is currently on one of our legacy plans and we need to clarify plan status to ensure no disruption to your Loomio use. We are asking you to upgrade to a paid subscription plan at 50% off rate (locked in for life), apply for special rates or ask us to continue getting Loomio for free, paid by us.
>
> Please select one of the options below. More information is available in Help Subscription pricing.
>
> ### Option 1: 50% off all paid plans for life - limited time offer to 29 May 2019
>
> Upgrade your group to a current paid subscription plan. In thanks for your active support, we are offering a 50% discount off paid plans, for your group for life! Use coupon code LOOMIO50 when you upgrade. Applicable for commercial and funded non profit organizations including political parties.
> * Small (up to 50 people): $US 24.50 per month ($245.00 per year)
> * Medium (up to 500 people): $US 74.50 per month ($745.00 per year)
>
> ### Option 2: Member organization
>
> If your group is a volunteer or member supported organization, apply for special rates on annual plans with the Member supported application form. Applicable for some activist organizations, co-housing groups, community groups, collectives, sports clubs and spiritual groups:
>
> * Small (up to 50 people): $US 98.00 per year
> * Medium (up to 500 people): $US 149.00 per year
>
> ### Option 3: Unfunded community group
>
> We sponsor Loomio free to unfunded groups such as activists, hobby groups, classroom education, families and friends.
>
> If your group has no funds, apply for a free sponsored plan with our Community Application form.

>
> ### Option 4: Move the group to a subgroup
>
> If you have several groups, you may wish to consolidate these under a single group subscription. In most cases we can move groups to become subgroups of a parent group. To do this, please contact us.
>
> ## Act now to avoid disruption to your service
>
> We will soon be shifting all legacy groups to trial status, with limits on the number of threads and people invited. If your group has already exceeded the limits, you may not be able to invite new people or start new threads.

>
> Please either upgrade your subscription plan or apply to continue using Loomio by 29 May 2019.
>
> ## Feedback

>
> If you have any questions about these upcoming changes at Loomio, please don’t hesitate to ask. We would love to hear how Loomio is working for you via email reply, or book a time for a call here.
>
> Thank you for your ongoing support.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 8 May 2019 4:40PM

In short, if we choose Option 1, we will have to pay at least 22€ / month, or 220€/year (because there is a discount of 50%, we need to take action before 29th May).

Actually, it's Option 2, "Member organization" => Medium (up to 500 people): $US 149.00 per year. And Vert Ardent had a big discount (from 19€/month down to 5€/month only).

Unless I'm wrong, self-hosting would mean having to create the accounts again? Wouldn't yunohost/Discourse be an option to investigate instead then?

Where did you receive that? I didn't receive anything for the Liège group :|

H

HgO Wed 8 May 2019 5:04PM

Really, that's how they did ? Because that wasn't clear if we had to pay the membership AND pay a subscription with some discount.

Unless I'm wrong, self-hosting would mean having to create the accounts again?

You are wrong : we can export the data (in theory, I never tried, but there is an option in the group menu.

Where did you receive that?

I don't really understand why, but I received a mail from [email protected] Other pirates were in copy (Pascal, Vincent, tierce, Paul and Jonas Dg)

I

Ilja Wed 8 May 2019 6:10PM

I would prefere the selfhosted/discourse option as well. Loomio is a decision making platform, but we use it more as a forum.

@landermeeusen what do you think about this? The situation makes it a bit forced, but I think it would be a good way to look for an alternative to loomio.

@vanecx Did liege already experimented with discourse?

One problem I see with "self-hosting as an alternative before 29th of may" is that we'll need to move quicker than we can. So I would prefer a short term solution where we will probably pay, with a focus on getting to a self-hosted solution on the long term (not necessaraly loomio).

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 8 May 2019 6:21PM

Really, that's how they did ? Because that wasn't clear if we had to pay the membership AND pay a subscription with some discount.

The memberships mentioned in Option 2 are how our organization works. Option 1 is for for-profit organizations and publicly funded parties, Option 2 is for non-profit and membership-funded organisation (like us). Option 3 is community stuff with no funding.

@vanecx Did liege already experimented with discourse?

So technically it works fine, we don't seem to have encountered any issues. But we were too few to try it out completely, and as we were running out of time, we postponed moving to Discourse for after the elections.

Just a correction : we don't have to have an alternative ready for 29/05 (this would be super short), but from that day, we might experience limitations on creating new threads and/or adding new members. So our Loomio group would still be functional and we could give use some weeks additional time after the elections, unless some people already want to move forward now - which is very risky :sweat_smile:

H

HgO Wed 8 May 2019 6:45PM

@vanecx Well, then if it's only 5€/month, I'd be fine with that.

@iljabaert I wouldn't be against switching to Discourse or Mattermost. I'm currently testing discourse as a participative platform in Braine-l'Alleud. It's really easy to maintain (I installed through Docker), and very intuitive. I don't know yet if it's easy to use for non-tech users, though. EDIT : Also, the rights management is more organic than in loomio. You can define admins and modos, but there is also a trust system : the more you participate, the more you increase your trust level (lvl3 can do more things than lvl0 for instance).

However, I would like to take the time for this kind of decision ^ So yes, either we switch to free plan, or we try to get Option 2.

RVE

Renaud Van Eeckhout Wed 8 May 2019 6:48PM

Well, then if it's only 5€/month, I'd be fine with that.

But that was more than a year ago, they didn't have that plan for non-profits then, so we're Option 2 if we want to pay.

I

Ilja Wed 8 May 2019 6:49PM

BTW, it's true that hosting costs money, we've been using Loomio for a while and it helped us a lot, so I definitely don't oppose giving them money (just so my stance on paying is clear as well)

H

Hobbes Wed 8 May 2019 7:20PM

I'm very new here, so bear with me if I state the obvious :-)
If just a discussion platform is needed, then there are many alternatives: from plain mailing lists to web platforms like discourse, mattermost, but also matrix (with or without federation),... But then we loose all history, and everyone has to subscribe again.
If the more advanced features of loomio are needed, or we want to keep history, then there is no choice: it's loomio. There are alternative to loomio's own hosted service, for example https://framavox.org/ . If self-hosting, the deploying method of choice seems to be docker: https://github.com/loomio/loomio-deploy. Framasoft also documented their own installation for framavox: https://framacloud.org/fr/cultiver-son-jardin/loomio.html
I don't know what's already available, but if there's already a dedicated server somewhere, it might (or might not) be able to handle loomio. So it might be free (apart from the time to set it up of course)

I

Ilja Wed 8 May 2019 8:58PM

I'm very new here

Welcome! I think I saw you here before, but didn't properly welcome you, so Welcome!

from plain mailing lists to web platforms like discourse, mattermost, but also matrix (with or without federation)

Eheheh, we have #ppbe-everywhere:matrix.org for general stuff and #ppbe-internetz:matrix.org for more IT-like stuff (or at least, that's how I use it :/ ). Feel free to join!
I don't think we need advanced Loomio features. In the past we experimented with different tools a lot, which led to an explosion of accounts and tools. In the end only a few remain, loomio is one of them but, as I said, we use it more as a forum then anything else (which is why it's also a seperate thing than, say, Matrix).

But then we loose all history, and everyone has to subscribe again.

Yes, these are good points... I think short term will be to stick to loomio(.org) anyhow, but this is a concern we'll need to take into account if we decide to move.

There are alternative to loomio's own hosted service

Problem is that we'll be needing new signups as well, with no added benefit for the users AND we're stuck to a 3th party again... Somehow this feels like a step back to me. However, if selfhosting would be deemed infeasible, then it may be good to have this as an option.

I don't know what's already available

Eheh, all IT costs (including servers) are listed on https://wiki.pirateparty.be/ITSquad . But if we need a new server, we can always spin one up. We've already been trying to cut some costs, but it needs to stay practical as well ofc.

@hgo I feel we desperatly need a new IT-meeting... (after elections ofc) We'll need to discuss how we're gonna handle tools in general and how to handle sign-on/accounts (single-sign-on?, how will accounts be created, what kind of tools will it allow...). Then we have this loomio thing, we have the pads that need to move...

CC

Christophe Cop Thu 9 May 2019 8:28AM

Provided we can come with enough funding : I'm willing to provide some monetary support , but we then should really need to reconsider how we get some steady funding from our 'members' in order to continue using the platform.
If hosting ourself is an option : it requires time and effort of someone who is willing and able to do that, and needs to be able to hand over the maintenance if that person decides to stop - . So does that outweigh the costs loomio will be charging?
We had our own platforms in the past (liquid democracy, get opinionated), and they all stranded...
So i prefer the option that is most viable and has more chance to persist over time.

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