Loomio
September 18th, 2013 08:13

Organization Structure

Pirate Praveen
Pirate Praveen Public Seen by 721

I propose we create a constitution for ourselves and define membership and responsibilities.

Also we can use Swathanthra Malayalam Computing (http://smc.org.in) as a legal custodian of our assets similar to how SPI handles assets and financial transactions for debian project.

Update (09/02/2017): We need to revisit this thread now and finish this task of defining a structure.

  1. Each sub team like poddery.com maintainers or git.fosscommunity.in should be able to take technical decisions independently. We can have them like special teams in debian (FTP masters, release team etc).
  2. We can create email accounts for official members
  3. Any time contribution to Free Software should be enough to get a membership (be it coding, design, support, publicity etc)
  4. Their contribution should be vouched by existing members (we can have initial members from this loomio group/riot group/mailing list).
  5. This structure can help us make official statements with everyone given a fair opportunity to comment.
  6. Ownership of assets like domains could be given to legal entities like SMC. Just like debian, we can have multiple organizations as trusted organizations to keep assets. We can ask other groups like DFF, SFLC, DAKF etc

Basically we need ensure we can sustain these services even if the current maintainers become inactive (I want to make myself redundant).

Further reading:

  1. https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/TrustedOrganizationCriteria has criteria debian uses to select trusted organizations.

  2. https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Auditor/Organizations has list of organizations trusted by debian.

  3. https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-9 is the section about trusted organizations.

Update (10/02/2017):

Preamble:

  1. Free Software Community of India is a collective of Free Software (sometimes also called as Open Source Software) users, advocates and developers.
  2. We maintain communication and collaboration infrastructure for everyone that respects their freedom and privacy.
  3. We depend on donations and community manpower to run the infrastructure.
  4. We maintain a list of Free Software communities and offer sub domains of fsug.in or fosscommunity.in
  5. We mentor Free Software enthusiasts to become Free Software contributors.
  6. We provide GNU/Linux installation and configuration support via online messaging groups.
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen started a proposal September 18th, 2013 08:16

Make SMC our legal home Closed 5:17pm - Wednesday 2 Oct 2013

Outcome
by Pirate Praveen April 25th, 2017 05:22

We are using SMC for our legal backing.

Yes - We can assign legal ownership of our assets (domians, servers etc) and authorize accepting money on our behalf (we did this already for savepoddery.com).

No - I don't agree to this proposal.

Results
Agree - 7
Abstain - 2
Disagree - 1
Block - 0
10 people have voted (0%)
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
Agree
September 18th, 2013 08:18

This will ensure our assets will be maintained properly and we can continue building free communication infrastructures.

Manu Krishnan T V

Manu Krishnan T V
Abstain
September 18th, 2013 08:27

Manu Krishnan T V

Manu Krishnan T V
Abstain
September 18th, 2013 08:27

Pavithran S

Pavithran S
Agree
September 18th, 2013 12:34

yes it would be easy to accept money .

Sooraj Kenoth

Sooraj Kenoth
Block
September 18th, 2013 16:40

I don't think it as good idea, as SMC is entirely different entity with different objectives.

Sooraj Kenoth

Sooraj Kenoth
Abstain
September 18th, 2013 16:49

I don't think it as good idea, as SMC is entirely different entity with different objectives.

Sooraj Kenoth

Sooraj Kenoth
Abstain
September 18th, 2013 16:49

Manu Krishnan T V

Manu Krishnan T V
Abstain
September 18th, 2013 17:05

SMC's major area of work is limited to a geographic location. But this can be much wider.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen September 18th, 2013 17:16

@manukrishnantv we just need someone to handle legal side, so geography is not an issue, I think.

Manu Krishnan T V

Manu Krishnan T V September 18th, 2013 17:22

It was just my opinion. Lets see what others think.

Anish Sheela

Anish Sheela
Agree
September 18th, 2013 18:57

Its a pain to start and maintain a community. Better to keep backing from SMC. I think keeping separate logical accounts would be great.

Anish Sheela

Anish Sheela
Agree
September 18th, 2013 18:57

Its a pain to start and maintain a legal entity. Better to keep backing from SMC. I think keeping separate logical accounts would be great.

StultuS

StultuS
Agree
September 22nd, 2013 06:43

SMC is already a registered society. so with a legal backing from smc ( handling money , tax , etc) will be definitely helpful. later when fosscommunity.in grow out of the box , we can always create a new legal structure.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C
Agree
September 22nd, 2013 19:17

I think it is ok to merge with SMC if and only if they are ok with it. We should never become a burden to SMC. We can always merge and fork na? So let's make SMC our legal home.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen September 23rd, 2013 06:57

@balasankarchelamat providing logistical support to Free Software communities is one of the core objectives of SMC (society).

Nitesh A Jain

Nitesh A Jain
Agree
September 24th, 2013 12:12

Akhil Krishnan S

Akhil Krishnan S
Disagree
September 29th, 2013 04:03

Quoting sooraj's opinion
"SMC is entirely different entity with different objectives."

Sooraj Kenoth

Sooraj Kenoth September 29th, 2013 18:40

@akhilkrishnans I have a small correction. That statement was a mistake from me. I was not an active participant in fosscommunity.in. When saw the discussion, I thought it is about pirate movement. Personally I don't like to connect pirate movement with SMC. So I blocked it. When I realized the mistake I corrected it. I apologise for the mistake I made.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C September 30th, 2013 11:38

To make things transparent, shouldn't the SMC members (who are not member of FCI) have a word on the issue?? Why don't we make it like this - FCI is requesting SMC to be its legal supporter, SMC places the discussion in front of its members, SMC members decide what to do. If they are fine, lets do it.

I don't think, the stuff involving another organization should be discussed in a platform like this. SMC must be informed formally about this request (via mail so that everyone knows) and let them respond.

Anish Sheela

Anish Sheela September 30th, 2013 15:42

@balasankarchelamat Yes. You are right. That need to be second step. After this discussion closes, we can discuss in SMC mailing list and can give a letter to SMC from us describing the situation.

This voting is solely for consent from FCI members regarding this.

Once they accept it, then only this become possible. If not, we propose alternatives. That's my thought on this.

Manoj Karingamadathil

Manoj Karingamadathil
Agree
October 1st, 2013 08:00

am ok with this.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C October 18th, 2013 16:04

I believe SMC's General Assembly agreed to this request.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 9th, 2017 05:30

We need to revisit this thread now and finish this task of defining a structure.

  1. Each sub team like poddery.com maintainers or git.fosscommunity.in should be able to take technical decisions independently. We can have them like special teams in debian (FTP masters, release team etc).
  2. We can create email accounts for official members
  3. Any time contribution to Free Software should be enough to get a membership (be it coding, design, support, publicity etc)
  4. Their contribution should be vouched by existing members (we can have initial members from this loomio group/riot group/mailing list).
  5. This structure can help us make official statements with everyone given a fair opportunity to comment.
  6. Ownership of assets like domains could be given to legal entities like SMC. Just like debian, we can have multiple organizations as trusted organizations to keep assets. We can ask other groups like DFF, SFLC, DAKF etc

Basically we need ensure we can sustain these services even if the current maintainers become inactive (I want to make myself redundant).

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 9th, 2017 06:57

Sharing the discussion points in #fci:matrix.org

Vikram Vincent

Pirate Praveen: read the thread on FCI assets. I don't have an opinion on it since I was involved with FCI years ago.

Pirate Praveen

Vikram Vincent: ok, we are trying to reactivate the wiki/website and make it more sustainable by defining/documenting teams, processes etc

Vikram Vincent

Fsmk being a legal entity handles issues of assets thru its committee.

This was something we designed from the early stages itself

Not sure why you selected smc over other orgs but I assume it is because a lot of you are from smc, right?
B

Another way would be to create FCI into a legal entity but I don't know if it is too late for that

Pirate Praveen

Vikram Vincent: yes, most of us knew smc well enough to ask at that time

Vikram Vincent: I prefer the way debian does it


there is one community without legal entity and multiple trusted organizations for legal requirement, owning assets etc

Vikram Vincent

Pirate Praveen: how would u implement such a distributed plan? Is there some legal text I can read to understand?

Pirate Praveen

debian has many legal trusted organizations like SPI in US, debian.ch in switzerland, debian Japan etc

Vikram Vincent

Right. In a region there is one trusted org. But FCI is distributed across India and smc is located in one place

So I don't see how your idea is implemented..

Pirate Praveen

Vikram Vincent: see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/TrustedOrganizationCriteria

Teams/DPL/TrustedOrganizationCriteria - Debian Wiki
Wiki Login FrontPage RecentChanges FindPage HelpContents TrustedOrga...ionCriteria Search: Wiki / Login Comments Info Attachments More Actions: Raw Text

Vikram Vincent: smc was just the first, we can always add more

Vikram Vincent

I read that. For example, in US, Debian as one trusted org and not several, right?


How would u handle conflicts among among multiple trusted orgs?

Pirate Praveen

Vikram Vincent: what kind of conflicts? its FCI -> trusted org interactions, we only have to worry about interaction with that organization and FCI
12:16
for example if we want to add FSMK as a trusted organization, somene in FCI can propose it and if its accepted, we can ask FSMK about their position


if there is a conflict between FSMK and SMC for example, that does not affect us

Vikram Vincent

So each trusted org handles a different aspect, I assume

Cannot be the same asset

Pirate Praveen

Vikram Vincent: yes
S
Vikram Vincent
12:18
Ah ok
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 9th, 2017 07:28

discussion with @jayaura on matrix/riot.

Aurabindo

Pirate Praveen: if FSMK and SMC are trusted orgs and they have a conflict, shouldnt FCI intervene and help resolve that ? How can it not affect FCI?
B

(assuming that FCI is legal and SMC FSMK are added as TOs)

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: the need for trusted organizations arise because we/FCI is not a legal entity

Aurabindo

well I didnt put it correctly. I know FCI is not legal at the moment. I was just asking the question in the hypothetical situation where FCI has become legal

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: having friends in both organizations, we can try an mediate in a conflict, but that should not affect us. Each of them will be holding a different asset.

Aurabindo: then we don't need any TO, we can handle our own assets

Aurabindo

Right, if the conflicts are over different assets, it should legally 'affect' FCI

But is there absolutely no chance of having such a conflict on assets that may be common? For instance, lets say an individual donates some infrastructure to FCI which both TO 'A' and 'B' would love to have. If the donor has not specifically mentioned whom the resource should be donated, then there could be an issue that FCI need to deal with, isnt it ?

or such cases are out of scope ?

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: there are bigger conflicts, even between countries? How do people solve it? People try to talk, have a mediator etc. This is a pure hypothetical situation, we are all people, we can think about a response when there is a conflict

Aurabindo: A or B don't have a say in decision making, FCI decides or the donor decides

FCI can tell the donor to give it to either A or B

Aurabindo

Right. So that the rule put forward by FCI. I think such cases needs to be well documented

if we are moving ahead with this idea

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: yes, we can use the debian't criteria as a starting point

Aurabindo

And for TO's to be interested in joining FCI, there needs to some perks they have with the membership

First one I can think of, is managing the legal aspects

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: no, the TO don't join FCI

Aurabindo

taxes etc ( if they apply)

I see

Pirate Praveen

both FCI and TO will see if the goals are aligned

Aurabindo

Okay

Pirate Praveen

in this case SMC or FSMK will see if supporting FCI helps Free Software, which is a goal of both those orgs

FCI will check the trackrecord of SMC and FSMK before approaching them and they will in turn check the track record of FCI

it helps when there are common members
B

many members are common between SMC and FCI so they can vouch for each other organizations

12:48
now if some members of FSMK or DFF or DAKF becomes a part of FCI, they can propose/vouch

@balasankarc

I know I am talking in future tenst, but still: My personal opinion for FCI is to not go legal. I love FCI to be always a community and not an "organization".
B
Pirate Praveen

@balasankarc: that is my preference too

there will be many compulsions when going legal, when there are already many legal entities that share the same goal of promoting Free Software, we don't need yet another one wanting to do the same

that why I like the way debian did it
B

its not just just debian many other projects gets affiliated with SPI or SFLC

Aurabindo

Pirate Praveen: I was not clear regarding the proposed relationship b/w FCI and SMC. Reading the debian constitution now

Pirate Praveen

https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/

Current Projects - Software Freedom Conservancy
The Software Freedom Conservancy provides a non-profit home and services to Free, Libre and Open Source Software (FLOSS) projects.

Prasanth Sugathan: do SFLC.in offer a simialr service for communities in India?

Aurabindo

Pirate Praveen: @balasankarc Has there been any discussions on the pros and cons of going official ?

Pirate Praveen

http://www.spi-inc.org/projects/
projects
SPI / projects Home Contact Corporate Donations Meetings Membership Projects SPI Associated Projects We are proud to be able to list the following 46 free and open source projects as being associated with SPI.

12:57
Aurabindo: https://www.loomio.org/d/1Z3oWqR7/proposal/9vBfM8VT
Loomio - Loomio

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 10th, 2017 07:31

Discussion with Arun M (fci@conference.diasp.in)

[11:44:42  IST] ‎arunm‎: Hi Praveen real problem is not organisation but we lack people doing real work
‎[11:44:49  IST] ‎arunm‎: Discuss politics
‎[11:45:06  IST] ‎arunm‎: Create next generation actisits
‎[11:54:05  IST] ‎praveen‎: arunm, I agree we need people who are motivated by politics, above thread is just an attempt to document the existing community, to sustain services like poddery.com and git.fosscommunity.in
‎[11:55:57  IST] ‎praveen‎: documenting processes helps new people to understand how how community works
‎[11:56:08  IST] ‎praveen‎: it is required to sustain a community
‎[11:57:27  IST] ‎praveen‎: we want a new member to know they can question the "seniors" and don't have to just follow
‎[11:58:24  IST] ‎praveen‎: this is mostly relevant for community ownership of infrastructure like the diaspora pod we run
‎[11:58:58  IST] ‎praveen‎: arunm, it is not a substitute for building activists
――――――――――――――――――――
‎[12:04:54  IST] ‎arunm‎: Praveen, I don't know. We need community it infrastructure like diaspora but the challenge is not one of Debian but that of autistici
‎[12:05:12  IST] ‎arunm‎: Debian model is not the best to me
‎[12:05:56  IST] ‎arunm‎: For debian community infrastructure is something to support its core community function of developing a free distro
‎[12:06:47  IST] ‎arunm‎: Here objective is to build shared it infrastructure for members use like email, data storage, messaging etc
‎[12:07:24  IST] ‎praveen‎: I'm looking at debian as "how a community work together"
‎[12:08:15  IST] ‎praveen‎: while autistici structure is good if we look at the output, but how do one join autistici?
‎[12:08:59  IST] ‎arunm‎: It may not work if they adopt debian model
‎[12:09:13  IST] ‎praveen‎: I'm more interrsted in growing the number of people who steps up to do the work
‎[12:09:39  IST] ‎praveen‎: hense looking at the debian structure
‎[12:09:48  IST] ‎arunm‎: Only way is work with them talk to them
‎[12:10:05  IST] ‎arunm‎: Discuss politics
‎[12:10:24  IST] ‎praveen‎: autistici/riseup is a closed group, though really committed and passionate people
‎[12:11:08  IST] ‎arunm‎: The spirit of rebellion and comradeship  
‎[12:13:16  IST] ‎praveen‎: but that usually ends up as small number of people in the front and large number following
‎[12:14:14  IST] ‎praveen‎: which I don't see as suatainable, as many times the people at the front get burned out or have to move out, the community dies with it
Bady

Bady February 10th, 2017 20:26

i'd like to question the necessity of having a constitution. doesn't it make things look more complicated than simply allowing people to associate freely? also one of the main reasons for not registering FCI as a legal entity is to avoid the complications that come with it, right? so my suggestion is to keep things simple by providing general guidelines instead of forming a constitution.

on the other hand it's fine if there are any solid reasons for creating a constitution. what all are the advantages of having a constitution (assuming that a constitution is no more valid than a set of guidelines when the organization isn't a registered one)?

Fayad Fami

Fayad Fami February 11th, 2017 06:21

I think it is a fact fci needs better organization. Constitution alone may not be enough for that. We will need to receive financial support, advices and backing in situations that needs backing.

As far as I understand we have members who've been part of smc and people who still work with smc. So the benefits overweights anything else. Besides organizations like smc are designed to support movements.

But only if more people from smc will step up and comment about this.

The measures outlined to organize fci will help to make it more official. Things will be streamlined, and new people will understand its worthiness and the need to contribute. Continue to have people from everywhere plus under one group with some structure.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 06:58

doesn't it make things look more complicated than simply allowing people to associate freely? also one of the main reasons for not registering FCI as a legal entity is to avoid the complications that come with it, right? so my suggestion is to keep things simple by providing general guidelines instead of forming a constitution.

If there is no defined structure, the community will end up being controlled by a small group. Even with defined constitutions, countries become dictatorships. Power has a corrupting influence and we have systematically restrict it. Constitution alone will not be sufficient, but it is necessary to define and restrict small group of people dominating others. It is not about complications, but limitations imposed by a hierarchical structure as required by law. When we are not registered, we are flexible about our structure and decision making. For a registered organization, we will have to follow the structure mandated by law. Without a constitution, do you think debian would have sustained this long?

Constitution is just a name that people understand, naming it guidelines would be okay too. It is something we show to new people. How do someone new to fosscommunity.in know who we are, what we do, why we are doing it, how can they become a part, do they get the same rights etc. Without a defined structure and process for accepting new members, growth will not be sustainable as a small group will only feel the ownership and when they become inactive, the groups dies too.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 07:06

I think it is a fact fci needs better organization. Constitution alone may not be enough for that. We will need to receive financial support, advices and backing in situations that needs backing.

Like I said above, constitution alone is not sufficient, but it is necessary to sustain the community. It is more of a documentation, a declaration of intent and purpose. We can associate with many existing registered organizations that share our values and goals to take care of financial and legal needs. It is a common practice for many Free Software communities to isolate legal structure from community decision making. Software in the Public Interest, Software Freedom Conservancy, our own SMC, all have a goal of supporting the Free Software communities in their goals and many projects use these services. If we are unable to get that support from existing organizations, we can think about creating our own.

But only if more people from smc will step up and comment about this.

SMC has already agreed to support us. https://www.loomio.org/d/1Z3oWqR7/comment/56345 I reopened this thread to complete writing a constitution that details our goals and a membership process so we become sustainable.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 07:13

I have added a preamble section in this thread's description. Please comment.

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J February 11th, 2017 07:23

Regarding the second point of the preamble We maintain communication and collaboration infrastructure for everyone, like a diaspora pod with xmpp chat support at poddery.com and a gitlab instance at git.fosscommunity.in, I suggest that specific services not be mentioned in there. Preamble should be the introduction. Further sections should mention in detail what services are hosted, what domains are registered, and who are the present admins, etc.

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J February 11th, 2017 07:26

Suggestion on point 2: How about changing from We maintain communication and collaboration infrastructure for everyone to We maintain communication and collaboration infrastructure for everyone that respects their freedom and privacy and depend on donations and community manpower to run the infrastructure

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 07:39

Updated, see now.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 09:16

Discussion with @jayaura about the name and stand about hardware.

Pirate Praveen: I think we need to clarify what is the official name of the organization: Is it FCI? If so, is that Free software Community of India or `Foss Community of India?

Or should we make it FLOSS ?

thats another usage I've come across in multiple places

And, why should we limit ourselves to just Software? Hardware deserves mention too!

@abhijith:matrix.org

Aurabindo: FLOSS seems too much

Aurabindo

@abhijith:matrix.org: I agree.

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: it was started as Foss community of India, but in descriptions I prefer to use Free Software

I don't like floss either


Aurabindo: propose a wording for hardware

we could change the name to Free Software Community of India

Aurabindo

Pirate Praveen: the question is whether hardware should be something thats important to this group. I am not aware of anyone who is into open hardware in here!

If there is enough interest, we can probably call it "Free Computing Community of India", to reflect that we also care about hardware

or something like that

or may be Free and Open Computing Community of India, FOCCI

In case we decide to include hardware, we need to come with a bang, like launching some hardware  project

we ofcourse, not commercially


I will be able to make a start with it. I have a DC Motor Driver in the work. Once tested, I'd like to release it open

Pirate Praveen

Aurabindo: well, even those hardware projects, we are only dealing with software, right?

Aurabindo: creating something like raspberry pi or fairphone or librem can be called a free hardware project

14:38
well, not rspberry pi, but olimex range of products have free hardware designs

and if we indeed start something later, we can always add it later too

Aurabindo

Pirate Praveen: open/free hardware need not necessarily be about making a generic full fledged computing system.  The DC motor driver i mentioned is something just like that. Presently I am not aware of any indian community thats interested in making hardware


and of course, associated free software for those hardware

I've come across one off projects like SnapVcc from electrnut.in etc

14:41
electronut.in
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen started a proposal February 11th, 2017 09:26

Change our name to Free Software Community of India Closed 10:39am - Sunday 12 Feb 2017

Outcome
by Pirate Praveen April 25th, 2017 05:22

Since it was blocked because of ambiguity over the word 'Free', we'll try Swatantra.

I think our activities are more aligned with the Free Software philosophy, rather than Open Source development model. I suggest we change our name to Free Software Community of India (FSCI). FOSS Community name was chosen initially to be neutral between the two camps, but I think we should take sides now.

Those who are new the debate, read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Results
Agree - 4
Abstain - 2
Disagree - 0
Block - 1
7 people have voted (0%)
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
Agree
February 11th, 2017 09:26

yes, talking about freedom and ethics is more important

shirish

shirish
Agree
February 11th, 2017 09:53

I completely agree as I find myself on the same side :)

Jackson Isaac

Jackson Isaac
Block
February 11th, 2017 10:11

I feel it can be easily confused with free as in freeware (that only allows to run the software for free) and not the 4 freedoms of open source software.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 10:30

@jacksonisaac would you agree if we change it to "Swatantra Software Community of India"? Swatantra translates to Freedom in many Indian languages and hence it won't confuse people.

NE

Nandakumar Edamana
Agree
February 11th, 2017 10:50

Yes, Open Source is rather a business model. There is no space for a 'community' there.

Jackson Isaac

Jackson Isaac February 11th, 2017 11:05

Yes, something like this would be better :)

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J
Abstain
February 11th, 2017 11:17

Option with multiple choices seems more logical for a decision to change name. This will help accommodate name suggestions from community members. This sounds more appropriate than to decide on or against just one particular name.

Jackson Isaac

Jackson Isaac February 11th, 2017 11:23

I agree with @jayaura

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 11th, 2017 12:02

@jayaura we will try to get consensus, if that fails, we remain as FOSS Community of India. Lets just wait for everyone to respond. There is no multiple choice option in loomio currently.

Dhanesh B. Sabane

Dhanesh B. Sabane
Agree
February 11th, 2017 14:34

fossyatra

fossyatra February 11th, 2017 15:54

:thumbsup: Yes agreed with fsci looks best sound ,'Open source' is not 'free software',Interesting To Read :https://opensource.com/business/16/11/open-source-not-free-software ,neither Open Source, nor Free Software have won. we still have a long way to go.

Greetings, GTR

Balasankar C

Balasankar C
Abstain
February 11th, 2017 16:00

Balasankar C

Balasankar C February 11th, 2017 16:00

Yes. Open source is aligned more to the business concept of the idea. But, why alienate ourselves from that? And I totally agree with Stallman that open source misses the point of freedom. That's what "F" in FOSS is intended to solve. I am inclined towards FCI, but can live with FSCI.

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J February 11th, 2017 18:13

As @jacksonisaac pointed out, newbies might consider 'Free' software as just 'available for free'. In most places where 'Free Software' is mentioned, it is occasionally followed by the tag 'Free as in Freedom'. Since the actual idea is Freedom with Software, why not just include the full word Freedom itself rather than just 'Free'. This is along the likes of SFLC. Eg., Software Freedom Community of India

Bady

Bady February 11th, 2017 21:08

Constitution is just a name that people understand, naming it guidelines would be okay too. It is something we show to new people. How do someone new to fosscommunity.in know who we are, what we do, why we are doing it, how can they become a part, do they get the same rights etc. Without a defined structure and process for accepting new members, growth will not be sustainable as a small group will only feel the ownership and when they become inactive, the groups dies too.

i agree with you. first i thought FCI is just a gateway to get connected with various Free Software Communities all over india. but since FCI is also providing many services on its own, i understand it's important to have a well-defined structure.

Bady

Bady February 11th, 2017 21:08

Any time contribution to Free Software should be enough to get a membership (be it coding, design, support, publicity etc)
Their contribution should be vouched by existing members (we can have initial members from this loomio group/riot group/mailing list).

should we take it that far? i mean why complicating the membership process, is there anything wrong with simply granting membership for anyone who requests it? (assuming that those who request membership will be naturally FOSS enthusiasts).

NE

Nandakumar Edamana February 11th, 2017 23:46

But I think, while 'Free' in 'Free Software' means freedom, 'Free' in 'FOSS' primarily means zero-cost in the marketing world. That might be the reason some people support the term 'FLOSS' rather than 'FOSS'.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C February 12th, 2017 02:49

Well, there is a general issue with the word Free being associated to cost. But I dont think that's specific to FOSS and not present in FS. Open Source being inclined to the monetary side shouldn't be the reason to keep it away.

The optimal, unambiguous word will be libre but that word is quiet alien to Indians and I won't dare to name the community a LOSS. :D

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 12th, 2017 04:27

We are not saying we won't work with people who prefer the term Open Source, we are just declaring what is important to us.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 12th, 2017 04:30

Swatantra Software Community of India will solve the ambiguity. I prefer it over Software Freedom Community.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 12th, 2017 04:42

There are two types of organizations, first type will give membership to anyone who requests, but the decision making is by a few people, most organizations follow this approach. You can become an associate member of FSF by paying about 8000 rupees, but you can't influence FSF with your associate membership. Basically, your role is a supporter.

Second type of organizations are careful about giving membership, but once you are a member, you get equal rights as all other members, debian is a prominent example of such an organization. I prefer the second type of organization, be careful about giving membership, but give equal rights to all members. In this, you are not just a supporter, but you get a say in every decision. This is what we call a do-o-cracy, democracy of the people who do the actual work.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen started a proposal February 12th, 2017 05:12

Change our name to Swatantra Software Community of India Closed 12:57pm - Saturday 25 Feb 2017

Outcome
by Pirate Praveen April 25th, 2017 05:22

Swatantra is ambiguous in Telugu, it means more like self-owned or self-sustained. Mukt is suggested as a better option.

I think our activities are more aligned with the Free Software philosophy, rather than Open Source development model. I suggested we change our name to Free Software Community of India (FSCI). FOSS Community name was chosen initially to be neutral between the two camps, but I think we should take sides now.

But earlier proposal was blocked because of ambiguity of the word 'Free', hence changing it to Swatantra, which means Freedom in many Indian languages.

Those who are new the debate, read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Results
Agree - 10
Abstain - 4
Disagree - 2
Block - 0
16 people have voted (0%)
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
Agree
February 12th, 2017 05:12

Swatantra is unambiguous about Freedom

Balasankar C

Balasankar C
Agree
February 12th, 2017 06:30

Yes. Swatantra feels right.

Sooraj Kenoth

Sooraj Kenoth
Abstain
February 12th, 2017 09:43

just observing....

Murali

Murali
Agree
February 12th, 2017 09:50

100% solidarity with the name change...

Aurabindo J

Aurabindo J February 12th, 2017 15:56

Swatathra sounds better than Free, but just wondering if it applies to the whole of India in terms of the language - literally. Swathanthra works well for Malayalam. But what about the rest of the languages? Since english is pretty universal, we did not have any issues with it. Hindi equivalent would be a slight variation of it, but Google says for Telugu, its "Svēccha". Those community might not like it. I think @pavithrans has his native language as Telugu?

Abhijith PA

Abhijith PA
Agree
February 12th, 2017 15:57

Anoop

Anoop
Abstain
February 13th, 2017 01:11

I'd rather support to change the name to FLOSS (Free/Libre and Open Source Software).

shirish

shirish February 13th, 2017 07:05

I don't see an issue with the name change but I think we are missing the wood for the trees. Apart from the name change, we also need to have a logo, a branding which asserts the identity. IIRC, there was some talk in the past but it fizzled out without anything concrete. The logo should assert out differences, our uniqueness and yet unity of purpose- forwarding, hacking on free software.

Manoj Karingamadathil

Manoj Karingamadathil
Abstain
February 14th, 2017 18:59

i am preferring Free Software.But Swatantra Okey

V. Sasi Kumar

V. Sasi Kumar
Agree
February 15th, 2017 03:57

I think the word "Swathanthra" perfectly fits with the philosophy. Even Stallman prefers the word. And, I think, it means the same in all Indian languages, as its roots are in Sanskrit. Freedom Software would have been okay. But I think it was taken.

Bady

Bady
Agree
February 15th, 2017 14:15

"[...] if you want to stand up for freedom, using a neutral term isn't the way. Standing up for freedom entails showing people your support for freedom."
source: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

vik@hamara

vik@hamara
Agree
February 16th, 2017 20:50

yes, like that name

shirish

shirish
Agree
February 16th, 2017 21:14

Agreeing with the new name as well, but....but...but this means designing new banners, logo etc. Is anybody looking at that, we have just 10-12 days to go for GMRT, Science Day

Jackson Isaac

Jackson Isaac
Agree
February 17th, 2017 05:08

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 17th, 2017 07:09

@shirish we can go with the current name for GMRT as we have 11 more days for the proposal to close. We'll think about logo, banner etc after the proposal is passed.

Dhanesh B. Sabane

Dhanesh B. Sabane
Agree
February 19th, 2017 13:38

Agreed. This name would resonate more with our activities.

Manu Krishnan T V

Manu Krishnan T V
Abstain
February 19th, 2017 17:37

Is name change the first important thing to be done?

Pavithran S

Pavithran S
Disagree
February 25th, 2017 05:21

I would prefer the name "Free Software" community to represent it. I do agree FOSS community should be replaced. Yes "Free Software" as a word has ambiguous meanings but I dont think the name "Swatantra" will strike someone as free software.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 25th, 2017 05:41

@pavithrans changing to "Free Software Community" was "blocked" by @jacksonisaac . You can try to convince him or we will go with "Swatantra Software Community" as you prefer it over "FOSS Community". If you can convince him to reduce his opposition to "disagree" from "block", we can go for a majority vote to decide between "Free Software" and "Swatantra Software".

Pavithran S

Pavithran S February 25th, 2017 06:26

Yes swatantra doesnt reflect as free software in telugu. For us its swecha.

Pavithran S

Pavithran S February 25th, 2017 06:27

Do you have a link where I can his arguments?

Fayad Fami

Fayad Fami
Disagree
February 25th, 2017 06:30

A name change should not convey a reset. On the contrary it should mean a reboot.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 25th, 2017 07:10

If you click on 'load earlier activity' you can see previous comments or go directly to https://www.loomio.org/d/1Z3oWqR7/comment/1267935

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 25th, 2017 07:11

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 25th, 2017 07:25

We had a discussion on #ssci:matrix.org room

Today

mujeebcpy joined the room.

mujeebcpy
Itheth room
B
Bady
Itheth room
unencrypted room of FCI

Aurabindo
Its not FCI anymore ;)
B
Bady
Its not FCI anymore ;)
the loomio proposal should be passed to make the name change official, right? i see 3 more days to go!
1+MB
Aurabindo
Its not FCI anymore ;)
the loomio proposal should be passed to make the name change official, right? i see 3 more days to go!

You're right ! ;)

pavi
Its not FCI anymore ;) the loomio proposal should be passed to make the name change official, right? i see 3 more days to go!
Thanks for reminding me of this. I logged in just to vote.

Pirate Praveen
pavi: convince Jackson Isaac about Free Software in name

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  Who is jackson Isaac? I am yet to read all opinions.
* pavi needs to find the Jackson Isaacs post.

Pirate Praveen
pavi: he is from Amruta

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  ok. Swatantra is too kerala centric.

Pirate Praveen
pavi: it works with Kannada and Hindi too

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  Hindi how?
I think its Swaatantra but I am not sure. I might be mixing up languages.

Pirate Praveen
Its Sanskrit root

pavi
Yes it is

Pirate Praveen
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatantra_Party there was a political party

Swatantra Party - Wikipedia
Open main menu Edit this page Read in another language Swatantra Party Political party of India Swatantra Party Founder C. Rajagopalachari Founded

pavi
My issue here is Swatantra can also mean doing things on your own. It has that ambiguity in the name.
Other than that I am not so bothered.

Pirate Praveen
www.swatantrabharat.com there is a news paper
Freedom and independance is used interchangeably

pavi sent an image
Screenshot_2017-02-25_07-37-47.png
Download Screenshot_2017-02-25_07-37-47.png (20.74 KB)
^^Got it from a dictionary.

Pirate Praveen
It works in telugu too?

pavi
Its the check on the meaning of the word swatanthra.
It means "self sustatining" or "self owned"
It doesnt mean "freedom"

Pirate Praveen
Oh :(

pavi
Swecha is the exact telugu word for freedom 😊
* pavi wonders if other people understand the word swecha?

Fayad
pavi: no. only if you are familiar with the place

Pirate Praveen
So we can use both :) for telugu use Swecha, others Swatantra but SSCI

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  thats the issue, for say SMC its good. It can be swatantra malayalam computing.
When we use a name for Indian community it shouldnt mean something else.

Fayad
It should be one for all. Not all for one.

pavi
Thats why I had to disagree with the vote. Sorry for tht.

Pirate Praveen
Swatantra/Swecha Software Community?
Like Free/Libre?

pavi
Swatantra/Swecha Software Community?
Dont mix up with swecha

Pirate Praveen
pavi: try to convinse Jackson Isaac then

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  you can use the word Mukth software
It makes perfect sense in telugu and hindi as well

Pirate Praveen
12:15
I'm okay with Free or Swatantra

pavi sent an image
Screenshot_2017-02-25_07-47-35.png
Download Screenshot_2017-02-25_07-47-35.png (16.22 KB)
Enlightenment should be moksh in hindi I guess

Pirate Praveen
MS ci is fun :)
Microsoft will object :)

shirish
mukti will be cool, gives lot of room to manouver.

Pirate Praveen
Nagarjuna uses Mukt Software
Mukt not Muft

pavi
Nagarjuna is telugu I guess
Mukt not Muft
Perfect dialogue, we can even have a tag line

shirish
'I said mukti' as it just does't mean freedom, in some senses it also means sacrifice as well and  enlightment, so multiple meanings, all of them positive.

Pirate Praveen
It will fit for Open too :) Indira Gandhi Mukt Vishwavidyalay :)

shirish
and the word is feminine-oriented as well, so women would feel welcomed.

Pirate Praveen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi_National_Open_University

Indira Gandhi National Open University - Wikipedia
Indira Gandhi National Open University From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation , search This article is about open university in New Delhi, India. For other uses see
shirish: Mukti is freedom, but Mukti Software doesn't fit together
Mukt Software is better

* pavi is happy with both mukt or mukti
D
Deys
Pirate Praveen: I agree on mukt software, since swatantra sounds more like self-governing

pavi
Deys:  which language are you from?
* pavi thanks Deys  👍
D
Deys
i am from mumbai, I have learned marathi, hindi, english and bengali is my mother-toungue

Pirate Praveen
Deys: wow!
pavi: then I'll close the current proposal and propose Mukt Software Community of India

pavi
Pirate Praveen:  by now you might have understood the ambiguity of the name.

Pirate Praveen
and MS community of India is a nice pun :)

pavi
pavi: then I'll close the current proposal and propose Mukt Software Community of India
Cool
shirish:  Mukti software?
Pirate Praveen:  Fayad  Just wondering about the roots of mukthi.. isnt it the freedom you get after enlightenment in malayalam?

shirish
mukti actually has very strong foundations in the Indian freedom movement.

Pirate Praveen
mukthi means liberation from limitations

shirish
I'm off for now, some housework, will return later.

pavi
Good news Mukt dot in is still with friends

shirish
use search engine 'mukti indian freedom  movement'

* pavi was scared the domain name was gone.

Pirate Praveen
mukthi and moksha are synonyms

pavi
mukthi means liberation from limitations
In malayalam? I am concerned about malayalam naming

Pirate Praveen
Fayad: are you okay with Mukt Software Community of India?
D
Deys
MS Community of india, that was a nice pun Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
pavi: Free or FOSS is not Malayalam, Mukt is Hindi/Sanskrit and is close enough

* pavi waits for the dravidian word 😜

Pirate Praveen
mukt means liberated

pavi
mukt means liberated
In dravidian languages?

Pirate Praveen
pavi: in Malayalam

pavi
pavi: in Malayalam
Then I am fine.

Telugus should also be fine with mukt word. What say Sarath ? SaiKarthik ?
DB
Pirate Praveen
12:48
uday: ^
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen started a proposal February 25th, 2017 07:34

Change our name to Mukt Software Community of India Closed 9:48pm - Monday 27 Feb 2017

Outcome
by Pirate Praveen April 25th, 2017 05:22

No consensus on this as well.

I think our activities are more aligned with the Free Software philosophy, rather than Open Source development model. I suggested we change our name to Free Software Community of India (FSCI). FOSS Community name was chosen initially to be neutral between the two camps, but I think we should take sides now.

But earlier proposal was blocked because of ambiguity of the word 'Free', and second proposal at changing it to Swatantra, was closed because ambiguity in Telugu (Swecha is better suited). So we could use Mukt Software Community of India. Mukt is derived from Mukti, meaning liberation and Mukt means liberated. 'Mukt not Muft' is commonly used to clarify meaning of Free.

Those who are new the debate, read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Results
Agree - 5
Abstain - 1
Disagree - 2
Block - 0
8 people have voted (0%)
Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen
Agree
February 25th, 2017 07:35

Mukt removes ambiguity of Swatantra

Pavithran S

Pavithran S
Agree
February 25th, 2017 07:37

Mukt means liberated in many regions of India. For an Indian community this name would be appropriate. :thumbsup:

Balasankar C

Balasankar C
Disagree
February 25th, 2017 07:41

Mukt doesn't strike as freedom related in Malayalam. Yes it can mean that when explained in detail. But not on the first contact of the word, to a regular person.

Pirate Praveen

Pirate Praveen February 25th, 2017 07:42

@balasankarchelamat Free or FOSS is also not Malayalam. Mukt fits well in Hindi and we can take it as another foreign word.

Jackson Isaac

Jackson Isaac
Abstain
February 25th, 2017 07:47

This name also sounds okay. Mukt software is something new to hear. We could go with majority in this case, since everyone perceives the words differently.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C February 25th, 2017 07:53

Unfortunately, in the current situation English feels more familiar to Malayalees than Hindi. Mukt is too alien, in the context of freedom. We use mukt to show something's absence, in conjunction with some other word.

The question finally comes down to this: Which is familiar for more regions: Mukt or Swathanthra. I agree Swathanthra can also mean something else in other languages. But if one of the meanings is freedom, we can go with that itself.

D

Deys
Agree
February 25th, 2017 17:52

At a national level considering our national language hindi, Mukt Software would be correct according to me. We should use the local term according to the crowd we are speaking to.

D

Deys February 25th, 2017 17:55

I believe what we really need is a alternative term for "Free Software" to prevent people from thinking "Free as in no-money-charged".
The principles of Free software are more important. A community of people like us works and has to interact together with people from multiple ethnics at the same time (for example, a university were students will be from all around India) so "Mukt Software" would be the correct term in such a case.
And when we are at a place (could be a school, college, local techies) where speaking in the local language is more favourable we have to use the term in their local language for the same reason we are shifting towards mukt software.

Balasankar C

Balasankar C February 25th, 2017 18:35

FYI: India doesn't have a national language and Hindi definitely isn't one. There 22 languages that are officially accepted. Both Hindi and English were accepted as official languages, so Hindi doesn't have any advantage over English.

D

Deys February 25th, 2017 19:10

You are right about that. I just ended up associating popularity with national. If I consider the present state then Hindi isn't popular anymore .

shirish

shirish
Agree
February 25th, 2017 19:34

personally, it doesn't matter to me so much the name we take, what matters more is having a nice, all encompassing logo. If we know or have someone in the arts who could share with us a good logo that will be good.

D

Deys
Agree
February 26th, 2017 05:34

At a national level considering one of our popular language hindi, Mukt Software would be correct according to me. We should use the local term according to the crowd we are speaking to.

Manohar Elavarthi

Manohar Elavarthi February 26th, 2017 09:41

SWATHAMTHRA VS MUKTH

My mother tongue is TELUGU. In Telugu, 'swathamthra' (స్వతంత్ర) means freedom/ independent/ autonomous etc.
'swathamthra poraatam' (స్వతంత్ర పోరాటం) is most commonly used in Telugu to refer to 'freedom struggle'.
'swathamthra' and 'svechcha' (స్వేచ్ఛ) carry similar meaning.
Use this link to search for the meaning of Telugu words in English: http://www.andhrabharati.com/dictionary/

'mukth' has multiple meanings in Hindi. See http://www.shabdkosh.com/translate/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4-meaning-in-English-Hindi
Better to avoid Hindi words, in a country where is Hindi is imposed on other languages.

Rajesh Odayanchal

Rajesh Odayanchal
Agree
February 27th, 2017 04:20

I think "Free Software Community of India" is better